How can I discourage/prevent PCs from using door choke-points?












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To keep this from being voted as a duplicate of this, let me clarify. The other question asks for DM tactics to battle chokepoints. Its answers are all focused on fighting at these choke-points. I ask for ways to avoid PCs creating/using choke-points. I want my PCs to jump into the boss room which I've designed, and explore it during the match. I want them to enter rooms and not stand in the corridors during the entire dungeon.





Many classic dungeon maps are modular corridors and rooms, where PCs are expected to gradually progress through. Examples include the Doomvault, Tomb of Horrors, or the Forge of Fury. Advanced DMs can bring a stronger sense of an actual lair filled with enemies, when they start mixing enemies from multiple rooms, but mostly the books describe each room independently, and as far as I've experienced, unless something makes a particularly strong noise, fights are usually contained to the enemies in each separate room.



The Problem



Now, as both a player and as a DM, I've experienced the choke-point strategy. Boss rooms are a prime example, but this works in many situations. Players are faced against the next room, riddled with enemies. The DM reads their campaign book,




Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!




Ok, so PCs at the door, a long corridor behind them, and enemies within the room. The frontliners now simply stand in front of the doorway (effectively blocking it) and the nukers blast from behind and drop massive AoEs on the room while enemies do their best to




  • break the front-line

  • teleport / run-away with some hidden exit

  • spam the party with AoE back

  • attack the backliners with ranged attacks suffering from cover issues (thanks to the frontliners)


(This literally happened in my last session. The Bard dropped his Storm Sphere in the room, Druid dropped a Moonbeam, and while the Lich teleported out and tried his best to mess the party up, all the minions inside the room died while slightly bothering our fat Cleric.)



With specific enemies, breaking the party is somewhat easy. If you have on-going AoEs, if you can teleport, if you can protect yourself from the party's on-going spells. But most often, your group of enemies are just a bunch of martial enemies, and they have no way of splitting up the party.



As you can see from the maps, rooms are usually very different. They have platforms, and pillars, and parts with difficult terrain, and this all should be something for the party to take advantage of. But its so much easier to just use the doorway as a choke-point, that rooms are basically just used after everything is dead, when searching for loot.



How can I incentivize my players to enter rooms and take strategic advantage of each room's layout, when using the door as a choke-point is such an easy and effective strategy in many published adventures? Specifically, I want players to want to enter rooms and fight there, not just stand at the doors.



When I design dungeons/enemies from scratch, there are some ways of handling this. However, when using official content, it's gets harder to adapt the environment or enemies, and still keep true to the written content. We don't play in AL, but for example, we're doing Tales of the Yawning Portal, so strategies that also work in such published and mapped out dungeons are preferable.










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  • 1




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    Let us continue this discussion in chat.
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    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    10 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago
















30












$begingroup$


To keep this from being voted as a duplicate of this, let me clarify. The other question asks for DM tactics to battle chokepoints. Its answers are all focused on fighting at these choke-points. I ask for ways to avoid PCs creating/using choke-points. I want my PCs to jump into the boss room which I've designed, and explore it during the match. I want them to enter rooms and not stand in the corridors during the entire dungeon.





Many classic dungeon maps are modular corridors and rooms, where PCs are expected to gradually progress through. Examples include the Doomvault, Tomb of Horrors, or the Forge of Fury. Advanced DMs can bring a stronger sense of an actual lair filled with enemies, when they start mixing enemies from multiple rooms, but mostly the books describe each room independently, and as far as I've experienced, unless something makes a particularly strong noise, fights are usually contained to the enemies in each separate room.



The Problem



Now, as both a player and as a DM, I've experienced the choke-point strategy. Boss rooms are a prime example, but this works in many situations. Players are faced against the next room, riddled with enemies. The DM reads their campaign book,




Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!




Ok, so PCs at the door, a long corridor behind them, and enemies within the room. The frontliners now simply stand in front of the doorway (effectively blocking it) and the nukers blast from behind and drop massive AoEs on the room while enemies do their best to




  • break the front-line

  • teleport / run-away with some hidden exit

  • spam the party with AoE back

  • attack the backliners with ranged attacks suffering from cover issues (thanks to the frontliners)


(This literally happened in my last session. The Bard dropped his Storm Sphere in the room, Druid dropped a Moonbeam, and while the Lich teleported out and tried his best to mess the party up, all the minions inside the room died while slightly bothering our fat Cleric.)



With specific enemies, breaking the party is somewhat easy. If you have on-going AoEs, if you can teleport, if you can protect yourself from the party's on-going spells. But most often, your group of enemies are just a bunch of martial enemies, and they have no way of splitting up the party.



As you can see from the maps, rooms are usually very different. They have platforms, and pillars, and parts with difficult terrain, and this all should be something for the party to take advantage of. But its so much easier to just use the doorway as a choke-point, that rooms are basically just used after everything is dead, when searching for loot.



How can I incentivize my players to enter rooms and take strategic advantage of each room's layout, when using the door as a choke-point is such an easy and effective strategy in many published adventures? Specifically, I want players to want to enter rooms and fight there, not just stand at the doors.



When I design dungeons/enemies from scratch, there are some ways of handling this. However, when using official content, it's gets harder to adapt the environment or enemies, and still keep true to the written content. We don't play in AL, but for example, we're doing Tales of the Yawning Portal, so strategies that also work in such published and mapped out dungeons are preferable.










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Let us continue this discussion in chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    10 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago














30












30








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$begingroup$


To keep this from being voted as a duplicate of this, let me clarify. The other question asks for DM tactics to battle chokepoints. Its answers are all focused on fighting at these choke-points. I ask for ways to avoid PCs creating/using choke-points. I want my PCs to jump into the boss room which I've designed, and explore it during the match. I want them to enter rooms and not stand in the corridors during the entire dungeon.





Many classic dungeon maps are modular corridors and rooms, where PCs are expected to gradually progress through. Examples include the Doomvault, Tomb of Horrors, or the Forge of Fury. Advanced DMs can bring a stronger sense of an actual lair filled with enemies, when they start mixing enemies from multiple rooms, but mostly the books describe each room independently, and as far as I've experienced, unless something makes a particularly strong noise, fights are usually contained to the enemies in each separate room.



The Problem



Now, as both a player and as a DM, I've experienced the choke-point strategy. Boss rooms are a prime example, but this works in many situations. Players are faced against the next room, riddled with enemies. The DM reads their campaign book,




Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!




Ok, so PCs at the door, a long corridor behind them, and enemies within the room. The frontliners now simply stand in front of the doorway (effectively blocking it) and the nukers blast from behind and drop massive AoEs on the room while enemies do their best to




  • break the front-line

  • teleport / run-away with some hidden exit

  • spam the party with AoE back

  • attack the backliners with ranged attacks suffering from cover issues (thanks to the frontliners)


(This literally happened in my last session. The Bard dropped his Storm Sphere in the room, Druid dropped a Moonbeam, and while the Lich teleported out and tried his best to mess the party up, all the minions inside the room died while slightly bothering our fat Cleric.)



With specific enemies, breaking the party is somewhat easy. If you have on-going AoEs, if you can teleport, if you can protect yourself from the party's on-going spells. But most often, your group of enemies are just a bunch of martial enemies, and they have no way of splitting up the party.



As you can see from the maps, rooms are usually very different. They have platforms, and pillars, and parts with difficult terrain, and this all should be something for the party to take advantage of. But its so much easier to just use the doorway as a choke-point, that rooms are basically just used after everything is dead, when searching for loot.



How can I incentivize my players to enter rooms and take strategic advantage of each room's layout, when using the door as a choke-point is such an easy and effective strategy in many published adventures? Specifically, I want players to want to enter rooms and fight there, not just stand at the doors.



When I design dungeons/enemies from scratch, there are some ways of handling this. However, when using official content, it's gets harder to adapt the environment or enemies, and still keep true to the written content. We don't play in AL, but for example, we're doing Tales of the Yawning Portal, so strategies that also work in such published and mapped out dungeons are preferable.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




To keep this from being voted as a duplicate of this, let me clarify. The other question asks for DM tactics to battle chokepoints. Its answers are all focused on fighting at these choke-points. I ask for ways to avoid PCs creating/using choke-points. I want my PCs to jump into the boss room which I've designed, and explore it during the match. I want them to enter rooms and not stand in the corridors during the entire dungeon.





Many classic dungeon maps are modular corridors and rooms, where PCs are expected to gradually progress through. Examples include the Doomvault, Tomb of Horrors, or the Forge of Fury. Advanced DMs can bring a stronger sense of an actual lair filled with enemies, when they start mixing enemies from multiple rooms, but mostly the books describe each room independently, and as far as I've experienced, unless something makes a particularly strong noise, fights are usually contained to the enemies in each separate room.



The Problem



Now, as both a player and as a DM, I've experienced the choke-point strategy. Boss rooms are a prime example, but this works in many situations. Players are faced against the next room, riddled with enemies. The DM reads their campaign book,




Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!




Ok, so PCs at the door, a long corridor behind them, and enemies within the room. The frontliners now simply stand in front of the doorway (effectively blocking it) and the nukers blast from behind and drop massive AoEs on the room while enemies do their best to




  • break the front-line

  • teleport / run-away with some hidden exit

  • spam the party with AoE back

  • attack the backliners with ranged attacks suffering from cover issues (thanks to the frontliners)


(This literally happened in my last session. The Bard dropped his Storm Sphere in the room, Druid dropped a Moonbeam, and while the Lich teleported out and tried his best to mess the party up, all the minions inside the room died while slightly bothering our fat Cleric.)



With specific enemies, breaking the party is somewhat easy. If you have on-going AoEs, if you can teleport, if you can protect yourself from the party's on-going spells. But most often, your group of enemies are just a bunch of martial enemies, and they have no way of splitting up the party.



As you can see from the maps, rooms are usually very different. They have platforms, and pillars, and parts with difficult terrain, and this all should be something for the party to take advantage of. But its so much easier to just use the doorway as a choke-point, that rooms are basically just used after everything is dead, when searching for loot.



How can I incentivize my players to enter rooms and take strategic advantage of each room's layout, when using the door as a choke-point is such an easy and effective strategy in many published adventures? Specifically, I want players to want to enter rooms and fight there, not just stand at the doors.



When I design dungeons/enemies from scratch, there are some ways of handling this. However, when using official content, it's gets harder to adapt the environment or enemies, and still keep true to the written content. We don't play in AL, but for example, we're doing Tales of the Yawning Portal, so strategies that also work in such published and mapped out dungeons are preferable.







dnd-5e dungeon strategy






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edited 28 mins ago









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asked 12 hours ago









BlueMoon93BlueMoon93

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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Let us continue this discussion in chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    10 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Let us continue this discussion in chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    10 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago




5




5




$begingroup$
@BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
10 hours ago






$begingroup$
@BlueMoon93 I have removed your section on system agnostics from your question 1) talking about the tags you did not add to your question isn't helpful and just adds noise to your question 2) this question isn't system agnostic. you ask for strategies and mechanics which are inherently based in 5e's system. You don't seem to have any need to have a solution that works across multiple systems so that tag wouldn't be appropriate here (or there should be missing context you should add).
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
10 hours ago






1




1




$begingroup$
It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
$endgroup$
– Ruse
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
It's funny how every party is different. I have to beg my friends to stay/retreat into corridors, but the always just run into the room where they are easily assaulted on all sides.
$endgroup$
– Ruse
3 hours ago










7 Answers
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Talk to the players.



The party isn't doing anything wrong per se. Proper use of chokepoints is in fact good tactics, especially if they don't have a strong need to move in and surround the enemy. (If they had a bunch of melee guys getting screwed over by the tactic, then it would stink.)



But the easiest thing might be to talk to the players. Acknowledge that they've done nothing actually wrong but bring up the points you have brought up here, that it's just not very much fun for you, and maybe for them.



Refuse to engage.



To somewhat invert the usual message: "If the party can do it, so can your monsters."



The players like to huddle up in a corridor and refuse to come out? Why would the monsters stand there in the open and try to break through instead of retreating and waiting for the PCs to move?



Encounters as laid out in the book are only the general suggestion of how something works, but unless your monsters are mindless or of merely animal intellect, they should be able to easily recognize the strategy and move to the sides, out of the line of fire of the "nukers" in back. Stalemates aren't fun, especially if there's also some incorporeals or patrolling monster squads hassling the back line (though that depends on the specific fight at hand). Or the monsters could retreat under fire and pull back into their own hallway position.



Too often I see PCs playing with smart tactics while the monsters just growl and run at the party over and over. Only mindless creatures would do that; an obviously overmatched party of intelligent monsters should retreat, regroup, reinforce.



Engage on their own terms.



On the same basic level as above: Anything they can do, you can do. ("Better" is a matter of debate.)



There are very few monsters who totally lack ranged options. If the party likes to huddle in the back and lob spells, arrows, and cantrips, the monsters can absolutely respond in kind. Orcs can throw spears and axes just as well as they can charge in swinging. If the party insists on standing in a tightly clustered hallway position, use their tactic against them. Fireball and lightning bolt can be highly effective against a group that insists on standing in a straight line.



An extended artillery battle might not be much fun, but if they're gonna play games with doorways, you can play right back, and suddenly moving in close seems a lot better.



By the way, keep in mind that you can take an action at any point during a move, so it's completely valid to have a lich standing to one side of the door, out of easy line-of-sight, then run into view, fire a spell off, and move back into cover on the other side of the doorway. They can ready attacks to hit him when he appears, but it's not a foolproof plan since there's also spells like invisibility and mirror image out there.



Spread out the monsters.



Both tactically and strategically. If the party is relying on throwing area effects, make sure you keep your monsters spread out so only a few can be affected at a time, and maybe break up a big fight into a few smaller fights where they'll have to blow through more spell slots if they want to keep doing their shtick. And along that line...



Don't let the party rest easy.



This strategy seems to me to be very spell-slot-intensive. They have to keep the front line healed, and get almost all their damage from big damage spells like fireball. That suggests to me that the party may be sleeping more than normal, and that you might be allowing them to go take a long rest any time they want to.



Pressure the party to hurry up with time sensitive missions. Launch ambushes if they sleep in the dungeon. If they leave the dungeon to rest, the monsters use that time to reinforce their numbers, reinhabit rooms previously cleared, set guards or traps, block doors or build barricades, summon demonic defenders, and so on. Make the monsters at least as tactically smart as the PCs are. Let the party know that relying almost entirely on the spellcasters' damage output is not going to cut it.



The module is only a suggestion.



The module should not be treated as a bible. Encounters can and should move around, DMs are encouraged to add or remove creatures to make the fights harder or easier, and so on. Tune your adventure to the party, if necessary. Don't feel constrained by the words on the page.



If they're depending heavily on spells for damage, counter magic with magic when you can, especially if they keep leaving the dungeon to "wait until tomorrow".



The local spellcasters can and should adapt to their strategies by preparing protection from elements, wall spells, even globe of invulnerability if the levels are high enough. Keep in mind that a simple fog cloud can be utterly devastating to any ranged combat tactics, and a wall of fire blocks line of sight in addition to pulsing fire damage onto the party and forcing them to either back off or run through.






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    They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
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    – Nyakouai
    10 hours ago








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    Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
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    – anaximander
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
    $endgroup$
    – Darth Pseudonym
    9 hours ago












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    You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    9 hours ago






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    Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
    $endgroup$
    – NathanS
    8 hours ago



















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Your players are not choosing to fight from doorway choke points. You are.



"Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!"



All of your monsters are just standing in plain view in the middle of a well lit and empty room waiting for hapless adventurers to come along and harvest some XP from them? That's not even good video game design and RPGs should be much better than that.



Immerse the party in the story. Describe to the party what they are seeing. There's a large room with toppled and broken furniture pushed against the walls. There is a dusty and faded tapestry hanging from the ceiling over one corner of the room. There is a glint of metal from some pieces of armor laying on the floor near the furniture. Then put 2 of the zombies in a darkened corner behind behind the tapestry where they are not immediately visible and the other 2 at the back of the room or under some debris so they attack from a different angle. Let the party think the armor is some treasure to grab and have them come to life when any of the party approaches them. Draw them into the room and let them find the monsters in a more realistic manner. Have the lich reveal itself once the battle has begun.



It takes thought and planning by the DM but it makes for a much better game.






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  • 4




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    I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
    $endgroup$
    – TemporalWolf
    3 hours ago



















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Talk to the players



They might see using a clever strategy as good play, or they might be bored with the situation. Discuss solutions.



Sometimes camping should work



Against mindless enemies the strategy should simply work. If playing it out would not be fun or would take too much time (ask the players!), eyeball how much resoruces the fight should take and ask if the players are fine with losing that many hit points / spell slots / items / hit dice if you declare all the enemies dead with that. If the players are not fine with this, play it out and learn to make better estimates. Or maybe they enjoy they occasionaly show of power; that is fine, too.



The strategy gives initiative to the enemy



Typically, player characters are invading a location that houses superior forces and they rely on taking them one convenient encounter at a time. The strategy of staying in a corridor and killing things gives the enemy the initiative - the enemy can usually retreat, refuse to engage, and, if they are not in a dead end, get reinforcements. If players used plenty of magic or other consumables, retreat and come back when the spells are done. Retreat in case of another salvo of consumable resources.



Play the enemies as smartly as they deserve. Being hit on both sides will make the tunnel a lot less convenient, as will being targeted from afar by archers that one cannot see. Or maybe the enemies will get their own tanks.



If the players are not used to enemies that act with strategy, or if them losing is not a possible outcome of play, either discuss this matter out of character or let the characters make intelligence checks to figure out this downside of the strategy (with advantage to fighters and soldiers), or maybe have a cocky boss declare what they are going to do while the characters are camping in the corridor.



Also remember random encounters



A typical way of representing patrols, roaming creatures and the attention caused by noise is random encounters. Some modern dungeons might have neglected them, but if it makes sense for the location, consider writing a random encounter table and checking it on fixed intervals and when there is noise. The monsters should not arrive immediately, but camping in a corridor is a fine way of spending time.



How effective is it to fight from a corridor, really?



Consider issues of vision for the characters who are farther in the corridor. Their allies are in front, and, furthermore, the sides of the corridor restrict their field of vision significantly. Take this into account and and give out disadvantage or restrict field of vision as necessary. Especially consider size differences, such as smaller or shorter characters behind bigger ones. This need not be a matter of size category only.



Suggest scouting and give information



It is often a bad idea to charge into an unknown room. It might contain traps and other nasty surprises. Allow knowledge-type rolls and suggest scouting for the players to have some information about what lies ahea; if it turns out that the room has interesting and useful features, they will be more likely to go there once they learn of such features.






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    Your players are tacticians



    I have some players like this, and I reward them with an inspiration if they find a creative way to do anything, including solving puzzle and defeating encounter. But I have one agreement with them: same trick won't work twice.



    I explain the reason to them: I enjoy being amused, or even being trolled, by their creative method, but I don't want to watch the same trick getting used again, and again. It'll get old quickly. Find a new one so I don't get bored.



    That works! They enjoy finding new tactics, even simple, but clever, ones. It's a win-win situation. So, talk to them not to overuse the trick.



    If they are indeed tacticians, use these methods to stop or deter them from overusing the trick (after you talk to them, preferably):



    Simulate real world



    Objects have hit points, too! A section of stone wall has AC of 17. A dungeon wall should be large and resilient, so have average hit points of 27.




    • Throw a fireball or two, or maybe a bomb, and tell them the nearby walls crumbled, and suddenly 5 ft door become 15 ft. Or the walls nearly collapsed, they will get the hint.

    • That big orc boss right there doesn't like being stalled. He smashes the walls and creates a new door for his minions to attack the backliner. Add some cool boss line before smashing the wall


    Disclaimer: RAW, fireball doesn't damage objects, but as a DM you can go simulationist (talk to your player) and make it (and other spells) interact with object.



    Shutting door trap



    Or any trap. The idea is that you can't stand at the door.



    One example is demonstrating that the doors in the dungeon shut themselves automatically.




    "... and John, just before you pass through the door, the door is slamming shut. Do you want try to pass through?"




    Most of the time they will try just to pass, but if they try to block it from closing, and if they do, they take some damage because it turns out it is unblockable (or very hard to block). They might also get separated, but allow them to join up easily. Over time, they will take the hint and avoid standing at the door.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
      $endgroup$
      – Mindwin
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
      $endgroup$
      – NautArch
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
      $endgroup$
      – bvstuart
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
      $endgroup$
      – Vylix
      6 hours ago



















    5












    $begingroup$

    In addition to the great answers already here, there's another, pretty simple option: Just give the players a reason to want to get into the room, and make the opponents the ones wanting to keep them out of it.



    You want to hang back in the hallway? Great. That choke point also means it will only take a small handful of the opponents to hold you off. Meanwhile, the other cultists will go ahead and sacrifice that princess you were sent to rescue; your rivals will get to that powerful artifact first; the villain will escape and seal the only exit behind him; etc.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    • $begingroup$
      Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
      $endgroup$
      – V2Blast
      26 mins ago



















    4












    $begingroup$

    What enemies?



    Just because we know the room is laden with enemies does not mean the players will automatically perceive the enemies. The zombies and armor just look like odd shadows in the room. No one notices until they are already inside the room.



    We need to get out of here now!!!



    "A flood of rust monsters are charging through the hallway with a baby Tarasque brining up the rear. Maybe we should not wait in the hallway..." Your players can not afford to stay in the hallway and are forced into the room. The reason could be a rolling boulder, a quickly flooding tunnel, a methane gas leak (more fun times ahead with this one), or something else that the players KNOW that they can not handle and need to get moving.



    Another fun one: They have shock / blast runes cast on them. If they don't leave before a magically growing field reaches them their shock / blast runes go off and we have a crisp PC.



    Leeroy Jenkins



    Not the best solution but an NPC that does not wait. Make sure they are important to the players so players don't just BBQ the NPC themselves and have to rush in to help them. ies.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
      $endgroup$
      – Peregrine Lennert
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
      $endgroup$
      – Tim Brigham
      4 hours ago



















    0












    $begingroup$

    Some ideas:



    Use creatures who have powerful ranged attacks that need to "charge up" over a few rounds. The party could plink them, but they'll end up taking a lot more damage than if they rush and disrupt the enemy.



    Have your enemies be intelligent enough to also rely on chokepoints, but with the advantage of home-turf knowledge. A narrow corridor makes for a good choke point, but when the enemy knows where the secret passages are, they can sneak behind the party and end up being able to attack from both sides.



    Place a pit trap a few feet before the door - your PCs will have to choose between going into the room, or leaving. The monsters will happily stay inside the room, waiting. The PCs can't camp out at the doorway because of the pit.






    share|improve this answer









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      7 Answers
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      7 Answers
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      43












      $begingroup$

      Talk to the players.



      The party isn't doing anything wrong per se. Proper use of chokepoints is in fact good tactics, especially if they don't have a strong need to move in and surround the enemy. (If they had a bunch of melee guys getting screwed over by the tactic, then it would stink.)



      But the easiest thing might be to talk to the players. Acknowledge that they've done nothing actually wrong but bring up the points you have brought up here, that it's just not very much fun for you, and maybe for them.



      Refuse to engage.



      To somewhat invert the usual message: "If the party can do it, so can your monsters."



      The players like to huddle up in a corridor and refuse to come out? Why would the monsters stand there in the open and try to break through instead of retreating and waiting for the PCs to move?



      Encounters as laid out in the book are only the general suggestion of how something works, but unless your monsters are mindless or of merely animal intellect, they should be able to easily recognize the strategy and move to the sides, out of the line of fire of the "nukers" in back. Stalemates aren't fun, especially if there's also some incorporeals or patrolling monster squads hassling the back line (though that depends on the specific fight at hand). Or the monsters could retreat under fire and pull back into their own hallway position.



      Too often I see PCs playing with smart tactics while the monsters just growl and run at the party over and over. Only mindless creatures would do that; an obviously overmatched party of intelligent monsters should retreat, regroup, reinforce.



      Engage on their own terms.



      On the same basic level as above: Anything they can do, you can do. ("Better" is a matter of debate.)



      There are very few monsters who totally lack ranged options. If the party likes to huddle in the back and lob spells, arrows, and cantrips, the monsters can absolutely respond in kind. Orcs can throw spears and axes just as well as they can charge in swinging. If the party insists on standing in a tightly clustered hallway position, use their tactic against them. Fireball and lightning bolt can be highly effective against a group that insists on standing in a straight line.



      An extended artillery battle might not be much fun, but if they're gonna play games with doorways, you can play right back, and suddenly moving in close seems a lot better.



      By the way, keep in mind that you can take an action at any point during a move, so it's completely valid to have a lich standing to one side of the door, out of easy line-of-sight, then run into view, fire a spell off, and move back into cover on the other side of the doorway. They can ready attacks to hit him when he appears, but it's not a foolproof plan since there's also spells like invisibility and mirror image out there.



      Spread out the monsters.



      Both tactically and strategically. If the party is relying on throwing area effects, make sure you keep your monsters spread out so only a few can be affected at a time, and maybe break up a big fight into a few smaller fights where they'll have to blow through more spell slots if they want to keep doing their shtick. And along that line...



      Don't let the party rest easy.



      This strategy seems to me to be very spell-slot-intensive. They have to keep the front line healed, and get almost all their damage from big damage spells like fireball. That suggests to me that the party may be sleeping more than normal, and that you might be allowing them to go take a long rest any time they want to.



      Pressure the party to hurry up with time sensitive missions. Launch ambushes if they sleep in the dungeon. If they leave the dungeon to rest, the monsters use that time to reinforce their numbers, reinhabit rooms previously cleared, set guards or traps, block doors or build barricades, summon demonic defenders, and so on. Make the monsters at least as tactically smart as the PCs are. Let the party know that relying almost entirely on the spellcasters' damage output is not going to cut it.



      The module is only a suggestion.



      The module should not be treated as a bible. Encounters can and should move around, DMs are encouraged to add or remove creatures to make the fights harder or easier, and so on. Tune your adventure to the party, if necessary. Don't feel constrained by the words on the page.



      If they're depending heavily on spells for damage, counter magic with magic when you can, especially if they keep leaving the dungeon to "wait until tomorrow".



      The local spellcasters can and should adapt to their strategies by preparing protection from elements, wall spells, even globe of invulnerability if the levels are high enough. Keep in mind that a simple fog cloud can be utterly devastating to any ranged combat tactics, and a wall of fire blocks line of sight in addition to pulsing fire damage onto the party and forcing them to either back off or run through.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 9




        $begingroup$
        They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
        $endgroup$
        – Nyakouai
        10 hours ago








      • 6




        $begingroup$
        Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
        $endgroup$
        – anaximander
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
        $endgroup$
        – Darth Pseudonym
        9 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
        $endgroup$
        – NathanS
        8 hours ago
















      43












      $begingroup$

      Talk to the players.



      The party isn't doing anything wrong per se. Proper use of chokepoints is in fact good tactics, especially if they don't have a strong need to move in and surround the enemy. (If they had a bunch of melee guys getting screwed over by the tactic, then it would stink.)



      But the easiest thing might be to talk to the players. Acknowledge that they've done nothing actually wrong but bring up the points you have brought up here, that it's just not very much fun for you, and maybe for them.



      Refuse to engage.



      To somewhat invert the usual message: "If the party can do it, so can your monsters."



      The players like to huddle up in a corridor and refuse to come out? Why would the monsters stand there in the open and try to break through instead of retreating and waiting for the PCs to move?



      Encounters as laid out in the book are only the general suggestion of how something works, but unless your monsters are mindless or of merely animal intellect, they should be able to easily recognize the strategy and move to the sides, out of the line of fire of the "nukers" in back. Stalemates aren't fun, especially if there's also some incorporeals or patrolling monster squads hassling the back line (though that depends on the specific fight at hand). Or the monsters could retreat under fire and pull back into their own hallway position.



      Too often I see PCs playing with smart tactics while the monsters just growl and run at the party over and over. Only mindless creatures would do that; an obviously overmatched party of intelligent monsters should retreat, regroup, reinforce.



      Engage on their own terms.



      On the same basic level as above: Anything they can do, you can do. ("Better" is a matter of debate.)



      There are very few monsters who totally lack ranged options. If the party likes to huddle in the back and lob spells, arrows, and cantrips, the monsters can absolutely respond in kind. Orcs can throw spears and axes just as well as they can charge in swinging. If the party insists on standing in a tightly clustered hallway position, use their tactic against them. Fireball and lightning bolt can be highly effective against a group that insists on standing in a straight line.



      An extended artillery battle might not be much fun, but if they're gonna play games with doorways, you can play right back, and suddenly moving in close seems a lot better.



      By the way, keep in mind that you can take an action at any point during a move, so it's completely valid to have a lich standing to one side of the door, out of easy line-of-sight, then run into view, fire a spell off, and move back into cover on the other side of the doorway. They can ready attacks to hit him when he appears, but it's not a foolproof plan since there's also spells like invisibility and mirror image out there.



      Spread out the monsters.



      Both tactically and strategically. If the party is relying on throwing area effects, make sure you keep your monsters spread out so only a few can be affected at a time, and maybe break up a big fight into a few smaller fights where they'll have to blow through more spell slots if they want to keep doing their shtick. And along that line...



      Don't let the party rest easy.



      This strategy seems to me to be very spell-slot-intensive. They have to keep the front line healed, and get almost all their damage from big damage spells like fireball. That suggests to me that the party may be sleeping more than normal, and that you might be allowing them to go take a long rest any time they want to.



      Pressure the party to hurry up with time sensitive missions. Launch ambushes if they sleep in the dungeon. If they leave the dungeon to rest, the monsters use that time to reinforce their numbers, reinhabit rooms previously cleared, set guards or traps, block doors or build barricades, summon demonic defenders, and so on. Make the monsters at least as tactically smart as the PCs are. Let the party know that relying almost entirely on the spellcasters' damage output is not going to cut it.



      The module is only a suggestion.



      The module should not be treated as a bible. Encounters can and should move around, DMs are encouraged to add or remove creatures to make the fights harder or easier, and so on. Tune your adventure to the party, if necessary. Don't feel constrained by the words on the page.



      If they're depending heavily on spells for damage, counter magic with magic when you can, especially if they keep leaving the dungeon to "wait until tomorrow".



      The local spellcasters can and should adapt to their strategies by preparing protection from elements, wall spells, even globe of invulnerability if the levels are high enough. Keep in mind that a simple fog cloud can be utterly devastating to any ranged combat tactics, and a wall of fire blocks line of sight in addition to pulsing fire damage onto the party and forcing them to either back off or run through.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 9




        $begingroup$
        They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
        $endgroup$
        – Nyakouai
        10 hours ago








      • 6




        $begingroup$
        Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
        $endgroup$
        – anaximander
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
        $endgroup$
        – Darth Pseudonym
        9 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
        $endgroup$
        – NathanS
        8 hours ago














      43












      43








      43





      $begingroup$

      Talk to the players.



      The party isn't doing anything wrong per se. Proper use of chokepoints is in fact good tactics, especially if they don't have a strong need to move in and surround the enemy. (If they had a bunch of melee guys getting screwed over by the tactic, then it would stink.)



      But the easiest thing might be to talk to the players. Acknowledge that they've done nothing actually wrong but bring up the points you have brought up here, that it's just not very much fun for you, and maybe for them.



      Refuse to engage.



      To somewhat invert the usual message: "If the party can do it, so can your monsters."



      The players like to huddle up in a corridor and refuse to come out? Why would the monsters stand there in the open and try to break through instead of retreating and waiting for the PCs to move?



      Encounters as laid out in the book are only the general suggestion of how something works, but unless your monsters are mindless or of merely animal intellect, they should be able to easily recognize the strategy and move to the sides, out of the line of fire of the "nukers" in back. Stalemates aren't fun, especially if there's also some incorporeals or patrolling monster squads hassling the back line (though that depends on the specific fight at hand). Or the monsters could retreat under fire and pull back into their own hallway position.



      Too often I see PCs playing with smart tactics while the monsters just growl and run at the party over and over. Only mindless creatures would do that; an obviously overmatched party of intelligent monsters should retreat, regroup, reinforce.



      Engage on their own terms.



      On the same basic level as above: Anything they can do, you can do. ("Better" is a matter of debate.)



      There are very few monsters who totally lack ranged options. If the party likes to huddle in the back and lob spells, arrows, and cantrips, the monsters can absolutely respond in kind. Orcs can throw spears and axes just as well as they can charge in swinging. If the party insists on standing in a tightly clustered hallway position, use their tactic against them. Fireball and lightning bolt can be highly effective against a group that insists on standing in a straight line.



      An extended artillery battle might not be much fun, but if they're gonna play games with doorways, you can play right back, and suddenly moving in close seems a lot better.



      By the way, keep in mind that you can take an action at any point during a move, so it's completely valid to have a lich standing to one side of the door, out of easy line-of-sight, then run into view, fire a spell off, and move back into cover on the other side of the doorway. They can ready attacks to hit him when he appears, but it's not a foolproof plan since there's also spells like invisibility and mirror image out there.



      Spread out the monsters.



      Both tactically and strategically. If the party is relying on throwing area effects, make sure you keep your monsters spread out so only a few can be affected at a time, and maybe break up a big fight into a few smaller fights where they'll have to blow through more spell slots if they want to keep doing their shtick. And along that line...



      Don't let the party rest easy.



      This strategy seems to me to be very spell-slot-intensive. They have to keep the front line healed, and get almost all their damage from big damage spells like fireball. That suggests to me that the party may be sleeping more than normal, and that you might be allowing them to go take a long rest any time they want to.



      Pressure the party to hurry up with time sensitive missions. Launch ambushes if they sleep in the dungeon. If they leave the dungeon to rest, the monsters use that time to reinforce their numbers, reinhabit rooms previously cleared, set guards or traps, block doors or build barricades, summon demonic defenders, and so on. Make the monsters at least as tactically smart as the PCs are. Let the party know that relying almost entirely on the spellcasters' damage output is not going to cut it.



      The module is only a suggestion.



      The module should not be treated as a bible. Encounters can and should move around, DMs are encouraged to add or remove creatures to make the fights harder or easier, and so on. Tune your adventure to the party, if necessary. Don't feel constrained by the words on the page.



      If they're depending heavily on spells for damage, counter magic with magic when you can, especially if they keep leaving the dungeon to "wait until tomorrow".



      The local spellcasters can and should adapt to their strategies by preparing protection from elements, wall spells, even globe of invulnerability if the levels are high enough. Keep in mind that a simple fog cloud can be utterly devastating to any ranged combat tactics, and a wall of fire blocks line of sight in addition to pulsing fire damage onto the party and forcing them to either back off or run through.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      Talk to the players.



      The party isn't doing anything wrong per se. Proper use of chokepoints is in fact good tactics, especially if they don't have a strong need to move in and surround the enemy. (If they had a bunch of melee guys getting screwed over by the tactic, then it would stink.)



      But the easiest thing might be to talk to the players. Acknowledge that they've done nothing actually wrong but bring up the points you have brought up here, that it's just not very much fun for you, and maybe for them.



      Refuse to engage.



      To somewhat invert the usual message: "If the party can do it, so can your monsters."



      The players like to huddle up in a corridor and refuse to come out? Why would the monsters stand there in the open and try to break through instead of retreating and waiting for the PCs to move?



      Encounters as laid out in the book are only the general suggestion of how something works, but unless your monsters are mindless or of merely animal intellect, they should be able to easily recognize the strategy and move to the sides, out of the line of fire of the "nukers" in back. Stalemates aren't fun, especially if there's also some incorporeals or patrolling monster squads hassling the back line (though that depends on the specific fight at hand). Or the monsters could retreat under fire and pull back into their own hallway position.



      Too often I see PCs playing with smart tactics while the monsters just growl and run at the party over and over. Only mindless creatures would do that; an obviously overmatched party of intelligent monsters should retreat, regroup, reinforce.



      Engage on their own terms.



      On the same basic level as above: Anything they can do, you can do. ("Better" is a matter of debate.)



      There are very few monsters who totally lack ranged options. If the party likes to huddle in the back and lob spells, arrows, and cantrips, the monsters can absolutely respond in kind. Orcs can throw spears and axes just as well as they can charge in swinging. If the party insists on standing in a tightly clustered hallway position, use their tactic against them. Fireball and lightning bolt can be highly effective against a group that insists on standing in a straight line.



      An extended artillery battle might not be much fun, but if they're gonna play games with doorways, you can play right back, and suddenly moving in close seems a lot better.



      By the way, keep in mind that you can take an action at any point during a move, so it's completely valid to have a lich standing to one side of the door, out of easy line-of-sight, then run into view, fire a spell off, and move back into cover on the other side of the doorway. They can ready attacks to hit him when he appears, but it's not a foolproof plan since there's also spells like invisibility and mirror image out there.



      Spread out the monsters.



      Both tactically and strategically. If the party is relying on throwing area effects, make sure you keep your monsters spread out so only a few can be affected at a time, and maybe break up a big fight into a few smaller fights where they'll have to blow through more spell slots if they want to keep doing their shtick. And along that line...



      Don't let the party rest easy.



      This strategy seems to me to be very spell-slot-intensive. They have to keep the front line healed, and get almost all their damage from big damage spells like fireball. That suggests to me that the party may be sleeping more than normal, and that you might be allowing them to go take a long rest any time they want to.



      Pressure the party to hurry up with time sensitive missions. Launch ambushes if they sleep in the dungeon. If they leave the dungeon to rest, the monsters use that time to reinforce their numbers, reinhabit rooms previously cleared, set guards or traps, block doors or build barricades, summon demonic defenders, and so on. Make the monsters at least as tactically smart as the PCs are. Let the party know that relying almost entirely on the spellcasters' damage output is not going to cut it.



      The module is only a suggestion.



      The module should not be treated as a bible. Encounters can and should move around, DMs are encouraged to add or remove creatures to make the fights harder or easier, and so on. Tune your adventure to the party, if necessary. Don't feel constrained by the words on the page.



      If they're depending heavily on spells for damage, counter magic with magic when you can, especially if they keep leaving the dungeon to "wait until tomorrow".



      The local spellcasters can and should adapt to their strategies by preparing protection from elements, wall spells, even globe of invulnerability if the levels are high enough. Keep in mind that a simple fog cloud can be utterly devastating to any ranged combat tactics, and a wall of fire blocks line of sight in addition to pulsing fire damage onto the party and forcing them to either back off or run through.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 5 hours ago

























      answered 10 hours ago









      Darth PseudonymDarth Pseudonym

      15.2k33784




      15.2k33784








      • 9




        $begingroup$
        They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
        $endgroup$
        – Nyakouai
        10 hours ago








      • 6




        $begingroup$
        Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
        $endgroup$
        – anaximander
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
        $endgroup$
        – Darth Pseudonym
        9 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
        $endgroup$
        – NathanS
        8 hours ago














      • 9




        $begingroup$
        They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
        $endgroup$
        – Nyakouai
        10 hours ago








      • 6




        $begingroup$
        Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
        $endgroup$
        – anaximander
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
        $endgroup$
        – Darth Pseudonym
        9 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
        $endgroup$
        – NathanS
        8 hours ago








      9




      9




      $begingroup$
      They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
      $endgroup$
      – Nyakouai
      10 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      They're also very susceptible to, let's say, taking a patrol in the back. Their back of squishy casters. Especially when the question say " unless something makes a particularly strong noise". I'd posit that a spell called "Storm sphere" would probably qualify as a strong noise. (But I'm not really familiar with 5e apart from the basics, so I may be wrong on that particular sound effect of an otherwise loud battle :P ) - But this is 50% a "fight" option and 50% an "incencitize" option. Do it once or twice, they will learn to get in the room and watch the door.
      $endgroup$
      – Nyakouai
      10 hours ago






      6




      6




      $begingroup$
      Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
      $endgroup$
      – anaximander
      9 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Not really worth a full answer, so I'm commenting to expand on your "spread out the monsters" point. An effective tactic is to give the monsters ranged attack options. Even zombies can throw things. Now, that chokepoint works against the party - everything in the room can focus fire on whoever is in the doorway, while the party melee combatants are useless, and the characters trying to shoot through the doorway find that the character standing in front of them counts as three-quarters cover. Their best option is to run in and engage the shooters.
      $endgroup$
      – anaximander
      9 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
      $endgroup$
      – Darth Pseudonym
      9 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      @anaximander Great point. I had some comments that direction, but now I went ahead and split my "don't engage" into a "don't engage" and a "do engage, at range" section that points out that most monsters can use ranged weapons.
      $endgroup$
      – Darth Pseudonym
      9 hours ago














      $begingroup$
      You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
      $endgroup$
      – NautArch
      9 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      You may want to add something about line of sight for the guys in the back and the frontliners creating potential issues there.
      $endgroup$
      – NautArch
      9 hours ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
      $endgroup$
      – NathanS
      8 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Your "Refuse to engage" section reminded me of the enemies in Skyrim. If you sit on a rock and try to shoot, say, a giant to death, it'll run away and hide out of line of sight until you come down, at which point it comes right back out of hiding to send you flying... No reason enemies in D&D can't do the same thing...
      $endgroup$
      – NathanS
      8 hours ago













      37












      $begingroup$

      Your players are not choosing to fight from doorway choke points. You are.



      "Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!"



      All of your monsters are just standing in plain view in the middle of a well lit and empty room waiting for hapless adventurers to come along and harvest some XP from them? That's not even good video game design and RPGs should be much better than that.



      Immerse the party in the story. Describe to the party what they are seeing. There's a large room with toppled and broken furniture pushed against the walls. There is a dusty and faded tapestry hanging from the ceiling over one corner of the room. There is a glint of metal from some pieces of armor laying on the floor near the furniture. Then put 2 of the zombies in a darkened corner behind behind the tapestry where they are not immediately visible and the other 2 at the back of the room or under some debris so they attack from a different angle. Let the party think the armor is some treasure to grab and have them come to life when any of the party approaches them. Draw them into the room and let them find the monsters in a more realistic manner. Have the lich reveal itself once the battle has begun.



      It takes thought and planning by the DM but it makes for a much better game.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$









      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
        $endgroup$
        – TemporalWolf
        3 hours ago
















      37












      $begingroup$

      Your players are not choosing to fight from doorway choke points. You are.



      "Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!"



      All of your monsters are just standing in plain view in the middle of a well lit and empty room waiting for hapless adventurers to come along and harvest some XP from them? That's not even good video game design and RPGs should be much better than that.



      Immerse the party in the story. Describe to the party what they are seeing. There's a large room with toppled and broken furniture pushed against the walls. There is a dusty and faded tapestry hanging from the ceiling over one corner of the room. There is a glint of metal from some pieces of armor laying on the floor near the furniture. Then put 2 of the zombies in a darkened corner behind behind the tapestry where they are not immediately visible and the other 2 at the back of the room or under some debris so they attack from a different angle. Let the party think the armor is some treasure to grab and have them come to life when any of the party approaches them. Draw them into the room and let them find the monsters in a more realistic manner. Have the lich reveal itself once the battle has begun.



      It takes thought and planning by the DM but it makes for a much better game.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$









      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
        $endgroup$
        – TemporalWolf
        3 hours ago














      37












      37








      37





      $begingroup$

      Your players are not choosing to fight from doorway choke points. You are.



      "Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!"



      All of your monsters are just standing in plain view in the middle of a well lit and empty room waiting for hapless adventurers to come along and harvest some XP from them? That's not even good video game design and RPGs should be much better than that.



      Immerse the party in the story. Describe to the party what they are seeing. There's a large room with toppled and broken furniture pushed against the walls. There is a dusty and faded tapestry hanging from the ceiling over one corner of the room. There is a glint of metal from some pieces of armor laying on the floor near the furniture. Then put 2 of the zombies in a darkened corner behind behind the tapestry where they are not immediately visible and the other 2 at the back of the room or under some debris so they attack from a different angle. Let the party think the armor is some treasure to grab and have them come to life when any of the party approaches them. Draw them into the room and let them find the monsters in a more realistic manner. Have the lich reveal itself once the battle has begun.



      It takes thought and planning by the DM but it makes for a much better game.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Your players are not choosing to fight from doorway choke points. You are.



      "Yeah, you have 4 undead zombies, 2 living suits of armor, and a weakened Lich looking at you once you open the door. Roll initiative!"



      All of your monsters are just standing in plain view in the middle of a well lit and empty room waiting for hapless adventurers to come along and harvest some XP from them? That's not even good video game design and RPGs should be much better than that.



      Immerse the party in the story. Describe to the party what they are seeing. There's a large room with toppled and broken furniture pushed against the walls. There is a dusty and faded tapestry hanging from the ceiling over one corner of the room. There is a glint of metal from some pieces of armor laying on the floor near the furniture. Then put 2 of the zombies in a darkened corner behind behind the tapestry where they are not immediately visible and the other 2 at the back of the room or under some debris so they attack from a different angle. Let the party think the armor is some treasure to grab and have them come to life when any of the party approaches them. Draw them into the room and let them find the monsters in a more realistic manner. Have the lich reveal itself once the battle has begun.



      It takes thought and planning by the DM but it makes for a much better game.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 9 hours ago









      krbkrb

      53316




      53316








      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
        $endgroup$
        – TemporalWolf
        3 hours ago














      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
        $endgroup$
        – TemporalWolf
        3 hours ago








      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
      $endgroup$
      – TemporalWolf
      3 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      I'd leave a single zombie in the center of the room, chained to the floor (DC whatever to notice it is chained)... as bait for an overconfident front-liner. I've had great success in the past in this manner: if one of the front liners is surrounded/separated, the party has to push into the room to save them, and it limits their blast ability (unless they hurt their teammate).
      $endgroup$
      – TemporalWolf
      3 hours ago











      8












      $begingroup$

      Talk to the players



      They might see using a clever strategy as good play, or they might be bored with the situation. Discuss solutions.



      Sometimes camping should work



      Against mindless enemies the strategy should simply work. If playing it out would not be fun or would take too much time (ask the players!), eyeball how much resoruces the fight should take and ask if the players are fine with losing that many hit points / spell slots / items / hit dice if you declare all the enemies dead with that. If the players are not fine with this, play it out and learn to make better estimates. Or maybe they enjoy they occasionaly show of power; that is fine, too.



      The strategy gives initiative to the enemy



      Typically, player characters are invading a location that houses superior forces and they rely on taking them one convenient encounter at a time. The strategy of staying in a corridor and killing things gives the enemy the initiative - the enemy can usually retreat, refuse to engage, and, if they are not in a dead end, get reinforcements. If players used plenty of magic or other consumables, retreat and come back when the spells are done. Retreat in case of another salvo of consumable resources.



      Play the enemies as smartly as they deserve. Being hit on both sides will make the tunnel a lot less convenient, as will being targeted from afar by archers that one cannot see. Or maybe the enemies will get their own tanks.



      If the players are not used to enemies that act with strategy, or if them losing is not a possible outcome of play, either discuss this matter out of character or let the characters make intelligence checks to figure out this downside of the strategy (with advantage to fighters and soldiers), or maybe have a cocky boss declare what they are going to do while the characters are camping in the corridor.



      Also remember random encounters



      A typical way of representing patrols, roaming creatures and the attention caused by noise is random encounters. Some modern dungeons might have neglected them, but if it makes sense for the location, consider writing a random encounter table and checking it on fixed intervals and when there is noise. The monsters should not arrive immediately, but camping in a corridor is a fine way of spending time.



      How effective is it to fight from a corridor, really?



      Consider issues of vision for the characters who are farther in the corridor. Their allies are in front, and, furthermore, the sides of the corridor restrict their field of vision significantly. Take this into account and and give out disadvantage or restrict field of vision as necessary. Especially consider size differences, such as smaller or shorter characters behind bigger ones. This need not be a matter of size category only.



      Suggest scouting and give information



      It is often a bad idea to charge into an unknown room. It might contain traps and other nasty surprises. Allow knowledge-type rolls and suggest scouting for the players to have some information about what lies ahea; if it turns out that the room has interesting and useful features, they will be more likely to go there once they learn of such features.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        8












        $begingroup$

        Talk to the players



        They might see using a clever strategy as good play, or they might be bored with the situation. Discuss solutions.



        Sometimes camping should work



        Against mindless enemies the strategy should simply work. If playing it out would not be fun or would take too much time (ask the players!), eyeball how much resoruces the fight should take and ask if the players are fine with losing that many hit points / spell slots / items / hit dice if you declare all the enemies dead with that. If the players are not fine with this, play it out and learn to make better estimates. Or maybe they enjoy they occasionaly show of power; that is fine, too.



        The strategy gives initiative to the enemy



        Typically, player characters are invading a location that houses superior forces and they rely on taking them one convenient encounter at a time. The strategy of staying in a corridor and killing things gives the enemy the initiative - the enemy can usually retreat, refuse to engage, and, if they are not in a dead end, get reinforcements. If players used plenty of magic or other consumables, retreat and come back when the spells are done. Retreat in case of another salvo of consumable resources.



        Play the enemies as smartly as they deserve. Being hit on both sides will make the tunnel a lot less convenient, as will being targeted from afar by archers that one cannot see. Or maybe the enemies will get their own tanks.



        If the players are not used to enemies that act with strategy, or if them losing is not a possible outcome of play, either discuss this matter out of character or let the characters make intelligence checks to figure out this downside of the strategy (with advantage to fighters and soldiers), or maybe have a cocky boss declare what they are going to do while the characters are camping in the corridor.



        Also remember random encounters



        A typical way of representing patrols, roaming creatures and the attention caused by noise is random encounters. Some modern dungeons might have neglected them, but if it makes sense for the location, consider writing a random encounter table and checking it on fixed intervals and when there is noise. The monsters should not arrive immediately, but camping in a corridor is a fine way of spending time.



        How effective is it to fight from a corridor, really?



        Consider issues of vision for the characters who are farther in the corridor. Their allies are in front, and, furthermore, the sides of the corridor restrict their field of vision significantly. Take this into account and and give out disadvantage or restrict field of vision as necessary. Especially consider size differences, such as smaller or shorter characters behind bigger ones. This need not be a matter of size category only.



        Suggest scouting and give information



        It is often a bad idea to charge into an unknown room. It might contain traps and other nasty surprises. Allow knowledge-type rolls and suggest scouting for the players to have some information about what lies ahea; if it turns out that the room has interesting and useful features, they will be more likely to go there once they learn of such features.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          8












          8








          8





          $begingroup$

          Talk to the players



          They might see using a clever strategy as good play, or they might be bored with the situation. Discuss solutions.



          Sometimes camping should work



          Against mindless enemies the strategy should simply work. If playing it out would not be fun or would take too much time (ask the players!), eyeball how much resoruces the fight should take and ask if the players are fine with losing that many hit points / spell slots / items / hit dice if you declare all the enemies dead with that. If the players are not fine with this, play it out and learn to make better estimates. Or maybe they enjoy they occasionaly show of power; that is fine, too.



          The strategy gives initiative to the enemy



          Typically, player characters are invading a location that houses superior forces and they rely on taking them one convenient encounter at a time. The strategy of staying in a corridor and killing things gives the enemy the initiative - the enemy can usually retreat, refuse to engage, and, if they are not in a dead end, get reinforcements. If players used plenty of magic or other consumables, retreat and come back when the spells are done. Retreat in case of another salvo of consumable resources.



          Play the enemies as smartly as they deserve. Being hit on both sides will make the tunnel a lot less convenient, as will being targeted from afar by archers that one cannot see. Or maybe the enemies will get their own tanks.



          If the players are not used to enemies that act with strategy, or if them losing is not a possible outcome of play, either discuss this matter out of character or let the characters make intelligence checks to figure out this downside of the strategy (with advantage to fighters and soldiers), or maybe have a cocky boss declare what they are going to do while the characters are camping in the corridor.



          Also remember random encounters



          A typical way of representing patrols, roaming creatures and the attention caused by noise is random encounters. Some modern dungeons might have neglected them, but if it makes sense for the location, consider writing a random encounter table and checking it on fixed intervals and when there is noise. The monsters should not arrive immediately, but camping in a corridor is a fine way of spending time.



          How effective is it to fight from a corridor, really?



          Consider issues of vision for the characters who are farther in the corridor. Their allies are in front, and, furthermore, the sides of the corridor restrict their field of vision significantly. Take this into account and and give out disadvantage or restrict field of vision as necessary. Especially consider size differences, such as smaller or shorter characters behind bigger ones. This need not be a matter of size category only.



          Suggest scouting and give information



          It is often a bad idea to charge into an unknown room. It might contain traps and other nasty surprises. Allow knowledge-type rolls and suggest scouting for the players to have some information about what lies ahea; if it turns out that the room has interesting and useful features, they will be more likely to go there once they learn of such features.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Talk to the players



          They might see using a clever strategy as good play, or they might be bored with the situation. Discuss solutions.



          Sometimes camping should work



          Against mindless enemies the strategy should simply work. If playing it out would not be fun or would take too much time (ask the players!), eyeball how much resoruces the fight should take and ask if the players are fine with losing that many hit points / spell slots / items / hit dice if you declare all the enemies dead with that. If the players are not fine with this, play it out and learn to make better estimates. Or maybe they enjoy they occasionaly show of power; that is fine, too.



          The strategy gives initiative to the enemy



          Typically, player characters are invading a location that houses superior forces and they rely on taking them one convenient encounter at a time. The strategy of staying in a corridor and killing things gives the enemy the initiative - the enemy can usually retreat, refuse to engage, and, if they are not in a dead end, get reinforcements. If players used plenty of magic or other consumables, retreat and come back when the spells are done. Retreat in case of another salvo of consumable resources.



          Play the enemies as smartly as they deserve. Being hit on both sides will make the tunnel a lot less convenient, as will being targeted from afar by archers that one cannot see. Or maybe the enemies will get their own tanks.



          If the players are not used to enemies that act with strategy, or if them losing is not a possible outcome of play, either discuss this matter out of character or let the characters make intelligence checks to figure out this downside of the strategy (with advantage to fighters and soldiers), or maybe have a cocky boss declare what they are going to do while the characters are camping in the corridor.



          Also remember random encounters



          A typical way of representing patrols, roaming creatures and the attention caused by noise is random encounters. Some modern dungeons might have neglected them, but if it makes sense for the location, consider writing a random encounter table and checking it on fixed intervals and when there is noise. The monsters should not arrive immediately, but camping in a corridor is a fine way of spending time.



          How effective is it to fight from a corridor, really?



          Consider issues of vision for the characters who are farther in the corridor. Their allies are in front, and, furthermore, the sides of the corridor restrict their field of vision significantly. Take this into account and and give out disadvantage or restrict field of vision as necessary. Especially consider size differences, such as smaller or shorter characters behind bigger ones. This need not be a matter of size category only.



          Suggest scouting and give information



          It is often a bad idea to charge into an unknown room. It might contain traps and other nasty surprises. Allow knowledge-type rolls and suggest scouting for the players to have some information about what lies ahea; if it turns out that the room has interesting and useful features, they will be more likely to go there once they learn of such features.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 3 hours ago









          BlueMoon93

          14.7k1183148




          14.7k1183148










          answered 9 hours ago









          ThanuirThanuir

          5,07632459




          5,07632459























              6












              $begingroup$

              Your players are tacticians



              I have some players like this, and I reward them with an inspiration if they find a creative way to do anything, including solving puzzle and defeating encounter. But I have one agreement with them: same trick won't work twice.



              I explain the reason to them: I enjoy being amused, or even being trolled, by their creative method, but I don't want to watch the same trick getting used again, and again. It'll get old quickly. Find a new one so I don't get bored.



              That works! They enjoy finding new tactics, even simple, but clever, ones. It's a win-win situation. So, talk to them not to overuse the trick.



              If they are indeed tacticians, use these methods to stop or deter them from overusing the trick (after you talk to them, preferably):



              Simulate real world



              Objects have hit points, too! A section of stone wall has AC of 17. A dungeon wall should be large and resilient, so have average hit points of 27.




              • Throw a fireball or two, or maybe a bomb, and tell them the nearby walls crumbled, and suddenly 5 ft door become 15 ft. Or the walls nearly collapsed, they will get the hint.

              • That big orc boss right there doesn't like being stalled. He smashes the walls and creates a new door for his minions to attack the backliner. Add some cool boss line before smashing the wall


              Disclaimer: RAW, fireball doesn't damage objects, but as a DM you can go simulationist (talk to your player) and make it (and other spells) interact with object.



              Shutting door trap



              Or any trap. The idea is that you can't stand at the door.



              One example is demonstrating that the doors in the dungeon shut themselves automatically.




              "... and John, just before you pass through the door, the door is slamming shut. Do you want try to pass through?"




              Most of the time they will try just to pass, but if they try to block it from closing, and if they do, they take some damage because it turns out it is unblockable (or very hard to block). They might also get separated, but allow them to join up easily. Over time, they will take the hint and avoid standing at the door.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 2




                $begingroup$
                Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
                $endgroup$
                – Mindwin
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
                $endgroup$
                – NautArch
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
                $endgroup$
                – bvstuart
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
                $endgroup$
                – Vylix
                6 hours ago
















              6












              $begingroup$

              Your players are tacticians



              I have some players like this, and I reward them with an inspiration if they find a creative way to do anything, including solving puzzle and defeating encounter. But I have one agreement with them: same trick won't work twice.



              I explain the reason to them: I enjoy being amused, or even being trolled, by their creative method, but I don't want to watch the same trick getting used again, and again. It'll get old quickly. Find a new one so I don't get bored.



              That works! They enjoy finding new tactics, even simple, but clever, ones. It's a win-win situation. So, talk to them not to overuse the trick.



              If they are indeed tacticians, use these methods to stop or deter them from overusing the trick (after you talk to them, preferably):



              Simulate real world



              Objects have hit points, too! A section of stone wall has AC of 17. A dungeon wall should be large and resilient, so have average hit points of 27.




              • Throw a fireball or two, or maybe a bomb, and tell them the nearby walls crumbled, and suddenly 5 ft door become 15 ft. Or the walls nearly collapsed, they will get the hint.

              • That big orc boss right there doesn't like being stalled. He smashes the walls and creates a new door for his minions to attack the backliner. Add some cool boss line before smashing the wall


              Disclaimer: RAW, fireball doesn't damage objects, but as a DM you can go simulationist (talk to your player) and make it (and other spells) interact with object.



              Shutting door trap



              Or any trap. The idea is that you can't stand at the door.



              One example is demonstrating that the doors in the dungeon shut themselves automatically.




              "... and John, just before you pass through the door, the door is slamming shut. Do you want try to pass through?"




              Most of the time they will try just to pass, but if they try to block it from closing, and if they do, they take some damage because it turns out it is unblockable (or very hard to block). They might also get separated, but allow them to join up easily. Over time, they will take the hint and avoid standing at the door.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 2




                $begingroup$
                Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
                $endgroup$
                – Mindwin
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
                $endgroup$
                – NautArch
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
                $endgroup$
                – bvstuart
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
                $endgroup$
                – Vylix
                6 hours ago














              6












              6








              6





              $begingroup$

              Your players are tacticians



              I have some players like this, and I reward them with an inspiration if they find a creative way to do anything, including solving puzzle and defeating encounter. But I have one agreement with them: same trick won't work twice.



              I explain the reason to them: I enjoy being amused, or even being trolled, by their creative method, but I don't want to watch the same trick getting used again, and again. It'll get old quickly. Find a new one so I don't get bored.



              That works! They enjoy finding new tactics, even simple, but clever, ones. It's a win-win situation. So, talk to them not to overuse the trick.



              If they are indeed tacticians, use these methods to stop or deter them from overusing the trick (after you talk to them, preferably):



              Simulate real world



              Objects have hit points, too! A section of stone wall has AC of 17. A dungeon wall should be large and resilient, so have average hit points of 27.




              • Throw a fireball or two, or maybe a bomb, and tell them the nearby walls crumbled, and suddenly 5 ft door become 15 ft. Or the walls nearly collapsed, they will get the hint.

              • That big orc boss right there doesn't like being stalled. He smashes the walls and creates a new door for his minions to attack the backliner. Add some cool boss line before smashing the wall


              Disclaimer: RAW, fireball doesn't damage objects, but as a DM you can go simulationist (talk to your player) and make it (and other spells) interact with object.



              Shutting door trap



              Or any trap. The idea is that you can't stand at the door.



              One example is demonstrating that the doors in the dungeon shut themselves automatically.




              "... and John, just before you pass through the door, the door is slamming shut. Do you want try to pass through?"




              Most of the time they will try just to pass, but if they try to block it from closing, and if they do, they take some damage because it turns out it is unblockable (or very hard to block). They might also get separated, but allow them to join up easily. Over time, they will take the hint and avoid standing at the door.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              Your players are tacticians



              I have some players like this, and I reward them with an inspiration if they find a creative way to do anything, including solving puzzle and defeating encounter. But I have one agreement with them: same trick won't work twice.



              I explain the reason to them: I enjoy being amused, or even being trolled, by their creative method, but I don't want to watch the same trick getting used again, and again. It'll get old quickly. Find a new one so I don't get bored.



              That works! They enjoy finding new tactics, even simple, but clever, ones. It's a win-win situation. So, talk to them not to overuse the trick.



              If they are indeed tacticians, use these methods to stop or deter them from overusing the trick (after you talk to them, preferably):



              Simulate real world



              Objects have hit points, too! A section of stone wall has AC of 17. A dungeon wall should be large and resilient, so have average hit points of 27.




              • Throw a fireball or two, or maybe a bomb, and tell them the nearby walls crumbled, and suddenly 5 ft door become 15 ft. Or the walls nearly collapsed, they will get the hint.

              • That big orc boss right there doesn't like being stalled. He smashes the walls and creates a new door for his minions to attack the backliner. Add some cool boss line before smashing the wall


              Disclaimer: RAW, fireball doesn't damage objects, but as a DM you can go simulationist (talk to your player) and make it (and other spells) interact with object.



              Shutting door trap



              Or any trap. The idea is that you can't stand at the door.



              One example is demonstrating that the doors in the dungeon shut themselves automatically.




              "... and John, just before you pass through the door, the door is slamming shut. Do you want try to pass through?"




              Most of the time they will try just to pass, but if they try to block it from closing, and if they do, they take some damage because it turns out it is unblockable (or very hard to block). They might also get separated, but allow them to join up easily. Over time, they will take the hint and avoid standing at the door.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 6 hours ago

























              answered 8 hours ago









              VylixVylix

              13.1k255151




              13.1k255151








              • 2




                $begingroup$
                Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
                $endgroup$
                – Mindwin
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
                $endgroup$
                – NautArch
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
                $endgroup$
                – bvstuart
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
                $endgroup$
                – Vylix
                6 hours ago














              • 2




                $begingroup$
                Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
                $endgroup$
                – Mindwin
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
                $endgroup$
                – NautArch
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
                $endgroup$
                – bvstuart
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
                $endgroup$
                – Vylix
                6 hours ago








              2




              2




              $begingroup$
              Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
              $endgroup$
              – Mindwin
              7 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Fireball (the spell - actually most spells) does not damage objects. Just pointing that out.
              $endgroup$
              – Mindwin
              7 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
              $endgroup$
              – NautArch
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Out of curiosity - where do you draw the line with clever tactics? Is it in ability usage(like kiting) or in using the environment intelligently. It seems punishing to say "well, I"ve given you this environment and you've found a good way to use it - but don't do it again."
              $endgroup$
              – NautArch
              6 hours ago




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
              $endgroup$
              – bvstuart
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              I've also had the monsters shut the door after 1 PC entered. They get object interactions too.
              $endgroup$
              – bvstuart
              6 hours ago




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
              $endgroup$
              – Vylix
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              @NautArch anything that solve puzzle or battle in unusual way, typically using item, spell, feat, for not their intended use, like spreading coins to gather a crowd, or dust of levitation (homebrew) to remove guards blocking the way out. I understand the feeling being punished, that's why I make agreement, and tell them my intention. I ask them to get as cheesy as they can, and in return I "guarantee" it will always work. Just don't overdo the same thing.
              $endgroup$
              – Vylix
              6 hours ago











              5












              $begingroup$

              In addition to the great answers already here, there's another, pretty simple option: Just give the players a reason to want to get into the room, and make the opponents the ones wanting to keep them out of it.



              You want to hang back in the hallway? Great. That choke point also means it will only take a small handful of the opponents to hold you off. Meanwhile, the other cultists will go ahead and sacrifice that princess you were sent to rescue; your rivals will get to that powerful artifact first; the villain will escape and seal the only exit behind him; etc.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
                $endgroup$
                – V2Blast
                26 mins ago
















              5












              $begingroup$

              In addition to the great answers already here, there's another, pretty simple option: Just give the players a reason to want to get into the room, and make the opponents the ones wanting to keep them out of it.



              You want to hang back in the hallway? Great. That choke point also means it will only take a small handful of the opponents to hold you off. Meanwhile, the other cultists will go ahead and sacrifice that princess you were sent to rescue; your rivals will get to that powerful artifact first; the villain will escape and seal the only exit behind him; etc.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
                $endgroup$
                – V2Blast
                26 mins ago














              5












              5








              5





              $begingroup$

              In addition to the great answers already here, there's another, pretty simple option: Just give the players a reason to want to get into the room, and make the opponents the ones wanting to keep them out of it.



              You want to hang back in the hallway? Great. That choke point also means it will only take a small handful of the opponents to hold you off. Meanwhile, the other cultists will go ahead and sacrifice that princess you were sent to rescue; your rivals will get to that powerful artifact first; the villain will escape and seal the only exit behind him; etc.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$



              In addition to the great answers already here, there's another, pretty simple option: Just give the players a reason to want to get into the room, and make the opponents the ones wanting to keep them out of it.



              You want to hang back in the hallway? Great. That choke point also means it will only take a small handful of the opponents to hold you off. Meanwhile, the other cultists will go ahead and sacrifice that princess you were sent to rescue; your rivals will get to that powerful artifact first; the villain will escape and seal the only exit behind him; etc.







              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer






              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              answered 7 hours ago









              cfccfc

              533




              533




              New contributor




              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.





              New contributor





              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              cfc is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.












              • $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
                $endgroup$
                – V2Blast
                26 mins ago


















              • $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
                $endgroup$
                – V2Blast
                26 mins ago
















              $begingroup$
              Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
              $endgroup$
              – V2Blast
              26 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance.
              $endgroup$
              – V2Blast
              26 mins ago











              4












              $begingroup$

              What enemies?



              Just because we know the room is laden with enemies does not mean the players will automatically perceive the enemies. The zombies and armor just look like odd shadows in the room. No one notices until they are already inside the room.



              We need to get out of here now!!!



              "A flood of rust monsters are charging through the hallway with a baby Tarasque brining up the rear. Maybe we should not wait in the hallway..." Your players can not afford to stay in the hallway and are forced into the room. The reason could be a rolling boulder, a quickly flooding tunnel, a methane gas leak (more fun times ahead with this one), or something else that the players KNOW that they can not handle and need to get moving.



              Another fun one: They have shock / blast runes cast on them. If they don't leave before a magically growing field reaches them their shock / blast runes go off and we have a crisp PC.



              Leeroy Jenkins



              Not the best solution but an NPC that does not wait. Make sure they are important to the players so players don't just BBQ the NPC themselves and have to rush in to help them. ies.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
                $endgroup$
                – Peregrine Lennert
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
                $endgroup$
                – Tim Brigham
                4 hours ago
















              4












              $begingroup$

              What enemies?



              Just because we know the room is laden with enemies does not mean the players will automatically perceive the enemies. The zombies and armor just look like odd shadows in the room. No one notices until they are already inside the room.



              We need to get out of here now!!!



              "A flood of rust monsters are charging through the hallway with a baby Tarasque brining up the rear. Maybe we should not wait in the hallway..." Your players can not afford to stay in the hallway and are forced into the room. The reason could be a rolling boulder, a quickly flooding tunnel, a methane gas leak (more fun times ahead with this one), or something else that the players KNOW that they can not handle and need to get moving.



              Another fun one: They have shock / blast runes cast on them. If they don't leave before a magically growing field reaches them their shock / blast runes go off and we have a crisp PC.



              Leeroy Jenkins



              Not the best solution but an NPC that does not wait. Make sure they are important to the players so players don't just BBQ the NPC themselves and have to rush in to help them. ies.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
                $endgroup$
                – Peregrine Lennert
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
                $endgroup$
                – Tim Brigham
                4 hours ago














              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              What enemies?



              Just because we know the room is laden with enemies does not mean the players will automatically perceive the enemies. The zombies and armor just look like odd shadows in the room. No one notices until they are already inside the room.



              We need to get out of here now!!!



              "A flood of rust monsters are charging through the hallway with a baby Tarasque brining up the rear. Maybe we should not wait in the hallway..." Your players can not afford to stay in the hallway and are forced into the room. The reason could be a rolling boulder, a quickly flooding tunnel, a methane gas leak (more fun times ahead with this one), or something else that the players KNOW that they can not handle and need to get moving.



              Another fun one: They have shock / blast runes cast on them. If they don't leave before a magically growing field reaches them their shock / blast runes go off and we have a crisp PC.



              Leeroy Jenkins



              Not the best solution but an NPC that does not wait. Make sure they are important to the players so players don't just BBQ the NPC themselves and have to rush in to help them. ies.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$



              What enemies?



              Just because we know the room is laden with enemies does not mean the players will automatically perceive the enemies. The zombies and armor just look like odd shadows in the room. No one notices until they are already inside the room.



              We need to get out of here now!!!



              "A flood of rust monsters are charging through the hallway with a baby Tarasque brining up the rear. Maybe we should not wait in the hallway..." Your players can not afford to stay in the hallway and are forced into the room. The reason could be a rolling boulder, a quickly flooding tunnel, a methane gas leak (more fun times ahead with this one), or something else that the players KNOW that they can not handle and need to get moving.



              Another fun one: They have shock / blast runes cast on them. If they don't leave before a magically growing field reaches them their shock / blast runes go off and we have a crisp PC.



              Leeroy Jenkins



              Not the best solution but an NPC that does not wait. Make sure they are important to the players so players don't just BBQ the NPC themselves and have to rush in to help them. ies.







              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 7 hours ago









              cfc

              533




              533






              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              answered 7 hours ago









              TolureTolure

              1493




              1493




              New contributor




              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.





              New contributor





              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              Tolure is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
                $endgroup$
                – Peregrine Lennert
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
                $endgroup$
                – Tim Brigham
                4 hours ago














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
                $endgroup$
                – Peregrine Lennert
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
                $endgroup$
                – Tim Brigham
                4 hours ago








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
              $endgroup$
              – Peregrine Lennert
              7 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to RPG.SE! Be sure to check out the tour and the help center if you have any questions.
              $endgroup$
              – Peregrine Lennert
              7 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
              $endgroup$
              – Tim Brigham
              4 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Nice one.. A collapsing roof is also a great option
              $endgroup$
              – Tim Brigham
              4 hours ago











              0












              $begingroup$

              Some ideas:



              Use creatures who have powerful ranged attacks that need to "charge up" over a few rounds. The party could plink them, but they'll end up taking a lot more damage than if they rush and disrupt the enemy.



              Have your enemies be intelligent enough to also rely on chokepoints, but with the advantage of home-turf knowledge. A narrow corridor makes for a good choke point, but when the enemy knows where the secret passages are, they can sneak behind the party and end up being able to attack from both sides.



              Place a pit trap a few feet before the door - your PCs will have to choose between going into the room, or leaving. The monsters will happily stay inside the room, waiting. The PCs can't camp out at the doorway because of the pit.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                Some ideas:



                Use creatures who have powerful ranged attacks that need to "charge up" over a few rounds. The party could plink them, but they'll end up taking a lot more damage than if they rush and disrupt the enemy.



                Have your enemies be intelligent enough to also rely on chokepoints, but with the advantage of home-turf knowledge. A narrow corridor makes for a good choke point, but when the enemy knows where the secret passages are, they can sneak behind the party and end up being able to attack from both sides.



                Place a pit trap a few feet before the door - your PCs will have to choose between going into the room, or leaving. The monsters will happily stay inside the room, waiting. The PCs can't camp out at the doorway because of the pit.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  Some ideas:



                  Use creatures who have powerful ranged attacks that need to "charge up" over a few rounds. The party could plink them, but they'll end up taking a lot more damage than if they rush and disrupt the enemy.



                  Have your enemies be intelligent enough to also rely on chokepoints, but with the advantage of home-turf knowledge. A narrow corridor makes for a good choke point, but when the enemy knows where the secret passages are, they can sneak behind the party and end up being able to attack from both sides.



                  Place a pit trap a few feet before the door - your PCs will have to choose between going into the room, or leaving. The monsters will happily stay inside the room, waiting. The PCs can't camp out at the doorway because of the pit.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Some ideas:



                  Use creatures who have powerful ranged attacks that need to "charge up" over a few rounds. The party could plink them, but they'll end up taking a lot more damage than if they rush and disrupt the enemy.



                  Have your enemies be intelligent enough to also rely on chokepoints, but with the advantage of home-turf knowledge. A narrow corridor makes for a good choke point, but when the enemy knows where the secret passages are, they can sneak behind the party and end up being able to attack from both sides.



                  Place a pit trap a few feet before the door - your PCs will have to choose between going into the room, or leaving. The monsters will happily stay inside the room, waiting. The PCs can't camp out at the doorway because of the pit.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  David RiceDavid Rice

                  1672




                  1672






























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