Why does The EMH Doctor feel emotion, but Data does not?












38















Both The Enterprise-D/E's Data, and Voyager's Emergency Medical Hologram, are crew members who are artificial intelligences.



In TNG, Data is depicted as being incapable of feeling emotion (at least before the movies). He's also portrayed as being an advanced piece of technology relative to Federation tech (e.g. some people want to disassemble him to see how he works, implying they don't already know).



Data repeatedly expresses desire to feel more emotion, but apparently, only a particular chip made by Noonien Soong can provide him with that capability.



Voyager's doctor, on the other hand, is shown as being quite emotional, often becoming irritated by other crew members, right from the moment of his activation.



How does the Federation have the technology to let the EMH feel (or display?) emotion, but was unable to grant Data this ability?










share|improve this question


















  • 6





    Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

    – Wikis
    May 16 '16 at 8:06











  • Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

    – Adamant
    May 16 '16 at 19:50








  • 1





    Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

    – Darrel Hoffman
    May 16 '16 at 20:46






  • 2





    Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

    – Howard Miller
    May 17 '16 at 0:41






  • 2





    When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

    – João Mendes
    May 18 '16 at 9:04
















38















Both The Enterprise-D/E's Data, and Voyager's Emergency Medical Hologram, are crew members who are artificial intelligences.



In TNG, Data is depicted as being incapable of feeling emotion (at least before the movies). He's also portrayed as being an advanced piece of technology relative to Federation tech (e.g. some people want to disassemble him to see how he works, implying they don't already know).



Data repeatedly expresses desire to feel more emotion, but apparently, only a particular chip made by Noonien Soong can provide him with that capability.



Voyager's doctor, on the other hand, is shown as being quite emotional, often becoming irritated by other crew members, right from the moment of his activation.



How does the Federation have the technology to let the EMH feel (or display?) emotion, but was unable to grant Data this ability?










share|improve this question


















  • 6





    Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

    – Wikis
    May 16 '16 at 8:06











  • Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

    – Adamant
    May 16 '16 at 19:50








  • 1





    Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

    – Darrel Hoffman
    May 16 '16 at 20:46






  • 2





    Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

    – Howard Miller
    May 17 '16 at 0:41






  • 2





    When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

    – João Mendes
    May 18 '16 at 9:04














38












38








38


5






Both The Enterprise-D/E's Data, and Voyager's Emergency Medical Hologram, are crew members who are artificial intelligences.



In TNG, Data is depicted as being incapable of feeling emotion (at least before the movies). He's also portrayed as being an advanced piece of technology relative to Federation tech (e.g. some people want to disassemble him to see how he works, implying they don't already know).



Data repeatedly expresses desire to feel more emotion, but apparently, only a particular chip made by Noonien Soong can provide him with that capability.



Voyager's doctor, on the other hand, is shown as being quite emotional, often becoming irritated by other crew members, right from the moment of his activation.



How does the Federation have the technology to let the EMH feel (or display?) emotion, but was unable to grant Data this ability?










share|improve this question














Both The Enterprise-D/E's Data, and Voyager's Emergency Medical Hologram, are crew members who are artificial intelligences.



In TNG, Data is depicted as being incapable of feeling emotion (at least before the movies). He's also portrayed as being an advanced piece of technology relative to Federation tech (e.g. some people want to disassemble him to see how he works, implying they don't already know).



Data repeatedly expresses desire to feel more emotion, but apparently, only a particular chip made by Noonien Soong can provide him with that capability.



Voyager's doctor, on the other hand, is shown as being quite emotional, often becoming irritated by other crew members, right from the moment of his activation.



How does the Federation have the technology to let the EMH feel (or display?) emotion, but was unable to grant Data this ability?







star-trek star-trek-tng star-trek-voyager star-trek-data star-trek-emh






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked May 16 '16 at 6:09









jmitejmite

407710




407710








  • 6





    Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

    – Wikis
    May 16 '16 at 8:06











  • Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

    – Adamant
    May 16 '16 at 19:50








  • 1





    Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

    – Darrel Hoffman
    May 16 '16 at 20:46






  • 2





    Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

    – Howard Miller
    May 17 '16 at 0:41






  • 2





    When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

    – João Mendes
    May 18 '16 at 9:04














  • 6





    Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

    – Wikis
    May 16 '16 at 8:06











  • Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

    – Adamant
    May 16 '16 at 19:50








  • 1





    Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

    – Darrel Hoffman
    May 16 '16 at 20:46






  • 2





    Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

    – Howard Miller
    May 17 '16 at 0:41






  • 2





    When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

    – João Mendes
    May 18 '16 at 9:04








6




6





Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

– Wikis
May 16 '16 at 8:06





Perhaps because an EMH needs emotions to improve his empathy and hence his bedside manner. At least, in theory. :)

– Wikis
May 16 '16 at 8:06













Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

– Adamant
May 16 '16 at 19:50







Awwwwwwwwwwwwww. :(

– Adamant
May 16 '16 at 19:50






1




1





Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

– Darrel Hoffman
May 16 '16 at 20:46





Does the EMH actually have emotions? Or is he just better at simulating them? The characters on the Holodeck all seemed to have (admittedly basic) emotions, and that technology long precedes Soong's work with androids. (An alien race with Holodeck-like technology was featured in an episode of ENT, which predates even TOS.)

– Darrel Hoffman
May 16 '16 at 20:46




2




2





Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

– Howard Miller
May 17 '16 at 0:41





Eventually, it's revealed that the EMH was developed by an actual human, and its medical abilities and personality were copied from the human.

– Howard Miller
May 17 '16 at 0:41




2




2





When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

– João Mendes
May 18 '16 at 9:04





When I first read this question, I though, meh, whatever. Turns out, it was one of the most thought provoking questions I've ever seen on the network. Kudos.

– João Mendes
May 18 '16 at 9:04










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes


















56














Data's lack of emotions is intentional



According to Lore, Dr. Soong deliberately left many features out of Data's programming in a bid to make him less threatening to humans.




LORE: It would be foolish to underestimate you, brother. Yes, I lied
when I said you were made first, but with good reason. Doctor Soong
made me perfect in his first attempt. But he made me so completely
human the colonists became envious of me.



DATA: You lived with the colonists?



LORE: Until they petitioned Soong to make a more comfortable, less
perfect android. In other words, you, brother. Haven't you noticed how
easily I handle human speech? I use their contractions. For example, I
say can't or isn't, and you say cannot or is not. (sings) I say
tomato, you say tomahto. I say potato, you say potahto. (laughs) A
very old joke. But then you also have trouble with their humour. Am I
right?



Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Datalore"




It seems likely that among the features Dr. Soong omitted in order to make Data less human were emotional programming. It is true that Lore sought to gain the emotion chip that Soong had designed for Data, but probably more out of jealousy than anything else, or perhaps to enhance his existing emotions. In any case, Lore clearly displays emotions before acquiring the chip. For example, he laughs in the previous transcript.



Furthermore, the Doctor came after Data



Data was born in 2336 or so.



The EMH was activated in the 2370s, and thus came several decades after Data.




KIM: Computer, initiate Emergency Medical Holographic programme.



(A balding human male appears.)



EMH: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.



KIM: Multiple percussive injuries.



EMH: Status of your doctor?



KIM: He's dead.



Star Trek: Voyager, "Caretaker"




This gave the Federation plenty of time to study Data's programming and improve upon it.



As such, the EMH may indeed be more advanced than Data, simply by virtue of being a later model.






share|improve this answer


























  • I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

    – Often Right
    May 16 '16 at 6:35






  • 6





    The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

    – Often Right
    May 16 '16 at 11:38






  • 4





    Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

    – Robert Harvey
    May 16 '16 at 14:34






  • 1





    @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

    – Ellesedil
    May 16 '16 at 16:30











  • Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

    – algiogia
    May 17 '16 at 11:40



















27














They're different tech



The important thing to recognise is that these are two vastly different pieces of technology, running on quite different hardware (one a Starfleet ship's computer and Hilo-emitters, the other a positronic brain). So there is a difference in programming them by virtue of their makeup.



Intentional design



The other factor and probably most important one is to remember that Data was made by Soong after Lore because Lore's emotions twisted. Data was designed and programmed intentionally to be emotionless because of Lore's problems.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

    – Ixrec
    May 16 '16 at 8:28






  • 3





    @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

    – Often Right
    May 16 '16 at 8:29








  • 2





    Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

    – a CVn
    May 16 '16 at 18:54






  • 2





    @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

    – Harry Johnston
    May 17 '16 at 0:52



















17














Besides the answers already mentioned (Data being intentionally stripped of emotions and the Doctor being later technology), there's another aspect worth considering: that the Doctor does not truly have emotions.



Judging by the Lewis Zimmerman we see in in the episode "Life Line", the Doctor was modeled after an irritable, sarcastic man. The Doctor's complaints about the crew and other emotions may be no more than a simulation Zimmerman designed to replicate his own commentary. Most holographic characters display emotion, and the Doctor's may be as superficial as the melodramatic characters we see in Reginald Barclay's holoprograms.






share|improve this answer
























  • Strong AI vs weak AI :)

    – Jane S
    May 17 '16 at 7:10











  • I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

    – Izkata
    May 17 '16 at 17:02








  • 1





    @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

    – Shane
    May 17 '16 at 20:18






  • 1





    @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

    – Izkata
    May 17 '16 at 20:57



















15














Just to add a little more to the mix. Out of universe, Data having no emotions gave the writers and story a place to explore emotions. Several times in TNG Data displays, what may be considered as, simple emotions. He has preferences, and most importantly desire. He is "fascinated" quite often and even displays sadness, angst, and hope.



The trick is that he doesn't seem to know he is doing it. Sure Data's emotions may be underdeveloped, but in several Data story lines, I get the distinct sensation that Soong wanted Data to develop his emotions naturally instead of being given a prescribed set of emotion algorithms. In fact that was one of the lessons learned from Lore.



The doctor on the other hand was designed to be an emergency replacement, running for only a couple of hours in a crisis. Generally thought of as a massive failure, the MK1 EMH's emotions got in the way more often then not. (see DSN episode and Voyager's Lifeline episode) But the emotions were programmed in to make it easier to relate to patients.



Simply put, they both had "emotions" but they started from different places. The doctor's was programmed in, and Data's was left to be discovered.






share|improve this answer

































    15














    The holograms have the capability to draw upon the entire resources of the mainframe of the ship. We see this in the TNG episode, Ship in a Bottle, where Moriarty becomes self-aware. The programming of the ship mainframes is complex enough that it is apparently capable of creating self-aware AI. Housing that in a mobile brain is a hardware problem.



    In TNG's Measure of a Man, we learn that the Federation has not yet managed to recreate the unique hardware of Data. Data's emotion chip is a chip, a piece of hardware, not an update to his programming but instead an add-on.



    So it comes down to this: The software is fine, it's the hardware that is the issue.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 2





      This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

      – Shane
      May 17 '16 at 20:31











    • Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

      – Cees Timmerman
      May 18 '16 at 11:52



















    8














    tl;dr: Apples and oranges.



    There are several problems with this question.



    First, we've never discovered for sure that the EMH does "feel emotion". Right up to the end of the show, several characters (despite having become his "friend") still considered his personality a mere simulation, and a hearing in late Season 7 declined to confidently declare that he had sentience. The only person to outright state this was the alien in Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy and, at the time, he was wrong about the Doctor in many, many ways.



    (Mind you, Star Trek has always been unclear and contradictory on the matter of whether its holograms could be self-aware; see e.g. Moriarty in early TNG. It's possible that this capability has been effectively retconned to a degree as holographic characters became a core part of the lore.)



    Second, Data was eventually imbued with emotions (with tech that far predated the EMH), and it has always been made clear that Data is actually a sentient "lifeform". These emotions were assuredly "real".



    I just don't think that the two can be compared in this manner.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 2





      The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

      – Schwern
      May 16 '16 at 21:01













    • "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

      – user44432
      May 16 '16 at 21:56






    • 2





      @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      May 16 '16 at 22:46








    • 1





      @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

      – Schwern
      May 17 '16 at 2:21








    • 2





      So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

      – JDługosz
      May 17 '16 at 8:49





















    0














    A common explanation I don't see represented here is that Voyager's computer actually has biological circuitry, while Data is entirely mechanical. It is often proposed that the bio-neural gel packs are at least part of the reason that the EMH was so easily able to become more human in his sentience.



    That said, there are other examples of sentient holograms (all created after Data) that seemed to have emotions. Moriarty seemed to have emotions, even though it took a lot of the ship's power to create him. Minuet seemed to have emotions when the Bynars temporarily upgraded the holodeck system in order to lure in Picard and Riker. Vic Fontain seems to have an emotional awareness in his counseling showing at least greater emotional awareness than Data. And the Fair Haven folk became self-aware and expressed the emotion of fear as their main plot.



    Only the latter were made on a ship with bio-neural gel packs, which would seem to disprove this theory. But I note that the only other accidental formation of emotions took a lot of the ship's power to do so, so it's possible the bio-neural gel packs make emotions easier to form.



    Anyways, this a common fan speculation to the point that it was originally included on Memory Alpha until removed for being non-canon. It was on so many sites that people assumed it must be canon.





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      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

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      7 Answers
      7






      active

      oldest

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      active

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      active

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      56














      Data's lack of emotions is intentional



      According to Lore, Dr. Soong deliberately left many features out of Data's programming in a bid to make him less threatening to humans.




      LORE: It would be foolish to underestimate you, brother. Yes, I lied
      when I said you were made first, but with good reason. Doctor Soong
      made me perfect in his first attempt. But he made me so completely
      human the colonists became envious of me.



      DATA: You lived with the colonists?



      LORE: Until they petitioned Soong to make a more comfortable, less
      perfect android. In other words, you, brother. Haven't you noticed how
      easily I handle human speech? I use their contractions. For example, I
      say can't or isn't, and you say cannot or is not. (sings) I say
      tomato, you say tomahto. I say potato, you say potahto. (laughs) A
      very old joke. But then you also have trouble with their humour. Am I
      right?



      Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Datalore"




      It seems likely that among the features Dr. Soong omitted in order to make Data less human were emotional programming. It is true that Lore sought to gain the emotion chip that Soong had designed for Data, but probably more out of jealousy than anything else, or perhaps to enhance his existing emotions. In any case, Lore clearly displays emotions before acquiring the chip. For example, he laughs in the previous transcript.



      Furthermore, the Doctor came after Data



      Data was born in 2336 or so.



      The EMH was activated in the 2370s, and thus came several decades after Data.




      KIM: Computer, initiate Emergency Medical Holographic programme.



      (A balding human male appears.)



      EMH: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.



      KIM: Multiple percussive injuries.



      EMH: Status of your doctor?



      KIM: He's dead.



      Star Trek: Voyager, "Caretaker"




      This gave the Federation plenty of time to study Data's programming and improve upon it.



      As such, the EMH may indeed be more advanced than Data, simply by virtue of being a later model.






      share|improve this answer


























      • I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 6:35






      • 6





        The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 11:38






      • 4





        Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

        – Robert Harvey
        May 16 '16 at 14:34






      • 1





        @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

        – Ellesedil
        May 16 '16 at 16:30











      • Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

        – algiogia
        May 17 '16 at 11:40
















      56














      Data's lack of emotions is intentional



      According to Lore, Dr. Soong deliberately left many features out of Data's programming in a bid to make him less threatening to humans.




      LORE: It would be foolish to underestimate you, brother. Yes, I lied
      when I said you were made first, but with good reason. Doctor Soong
      made me perfect in his first attempt. But he made me so completely
      human the colonists became envious of me.



      DATA: You lived with the colonists?



      LORE: Until they petitioned Soong to make a more comfortable, less
      perfect android. In other words, you, brother. Haven't you noticed how
      easily I handle human speech? I use their contractions. For example, I
      say can't or isn't, and you say cannot or is not. (sings) I say
      tomato, you say tomahto. I say potato, you say potahto. (laughs) A
      very old joke. But then you also have trouble with their humour. Am I
      right?



      Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Datalore"




      It seems likely that among the features Dr. Soong omitted in order to make Data less human were emotional programming. It is true that Lore sought to gain the emotion chip that Soong had designed for Data, but probably more out of jealousy than anything else, or perhaps to enhance his existing emotions. In any case, Lore clearly displays emotions before acquiring the chip. For example, he laughs in the previous transcript.



      Furthermore, the Doctor came after Data



      Data was born in 2336 or so.



      The EMH was activated in the 2370s, and thus came several decades after Data.




      KIM: Computer, initiate Emergency Medical Holographic programme.



      (A balding human male appears.)



      EMH: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.



      KIM: Multiple percussive injuries.



      EMH: Status of your doctor?



      KIM: He's dead.



      Star Trek: Voyager, "Caretaker"




      This gave the Federation plenty of time to study Data's programming and improve upon it.



      As such, the EMH may indeed be more advanced than Data, simply by virtue of being a later model.






      share|improve this answer


























      • I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 6:35






      • 6





        The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 11:38






      • 4





        Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

        – Robert Harvey
        May 16 '16 at 14:34






      • 1





        @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

        – Ellesedil
        May 16 '16 at 16:30











      • Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

        – algiogia
        May 17 '16 at 11:40














      56












      56








      56







      Data's lack of emotions is intentional



      According to Lore, Dr. Soong deliberately left many features out of Data's programming in a bid to make him less threatening to humans.




      LORE: It would be foolish to underestimate you, brother. Yes, I lied
      when I said you were made first, but with good reason. Doctor Soong
      made me perfect in his first attempt. But he made me so completely
      human the colonists became envious of me.



      DATA: You lived with the colonists?



      LORE: Until they petitioned Soong to make a more comfortable, less
      perfect android. In other words, you, brother. Haven't you noticed how
      easily I handle human speech? I use their contractions. For example, I
      say can't or isn't, and you say cannot or is not. (sings) I say
      tomato, you say tomahto. I say potato, you say potahto. (laughs) A
      very old joke. But then you also have trouble with their humour. Am I
      right?



      Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Datalore"




      It seems likely that among the features Dr. Soong omitted in order to make Data less human were emotional programming. It is true that Lore sought to gain the emotion chip that Soong had designed for Data, but probably more out of jealousy than anything else, or perhaps to enhance his existing emotions. In any case, Lore clearly displays emotions before acquiring the chip. For example, he laughs in the previous transcript.



      Furthermore, the Doctor came after Data



      Data was born in 2336 or so.



      The EMH was activated in the 2370s, and thus came several decades after Data.




      KIM: Computer, initiate Emergency Medical Holographic programme.



      (A balding human male appears.)



      EMH: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.



      KIM: Multiple percussive injuries.



      EMH: Status of your doctor?



      KIM: He's dead.



      Star Trek: Voyager, "Caretaker"




      This gave the Federation plenty of time to study Data's programming and improve upon it.



      As such, the EMH may indeed be more advanced than Data, simply by virtue of being a later model.






      share|improve this answer















      Data's lack of emotions is intentional



      According to Lore, Dr. Soong deliberately left many features out of Data's programming in a bid to make him less threatening to humans.




      LORE: It would be foolish to underestimate you, brother. Yes, I lied
      when I said you were made first, but with good reason. Doctor Soong
      made me perfect in his first attempt. But he made me so completely
      human the colonists became envious of me.



      DATA: You lived with the colonists?



      LORE: Until they petitioned Soong to make a more comfortable, less
      perfect android. In other words, you, brother. Haven't you noticed how
      easily I handle human speech? I use their contractions. For example, I
      say can't or isn't, and you say cannot or is not. (sings) I say
      tomato, you say tomahto. I say potato, you say potahto. (laughs) A
      very old joke. But then you also have trouble with their humour. Am I
      right?



      Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Datalore"




      It seems likely that among the features Dr. Soong omitted in order to make Data less human were emotional programming. It is true that Lore sought to gain the emotion chip that Soong had designed for Data, but probably more out of jealousy than anything else, or perhaps to enhance his existing emotions. In any case, Lore clearly displays emotions before acquiring the chip. For example, he laughs in the previous transcript.



      Furthermore, the Doctor came after Data



      Data was born in 2336 or so.



      The EMH was activated in the 2370s, and thus came several decades after Data.




      KIM: Computer, initiate Emergency Medical Holographic programme.



      (A balding human male appears.)



      EMH: Please state the nature of the medical emergency.



      KIM: Multiple percussive injuries.



      EMH: Status of your doctor?



      KIM: He's dead.



      Star Trek: Voyager, "Caretaker"




      This gave the Federation plenty of time to study Data's programming and improve upon it.



      As such, the EMH may indeed be more advanced than Data, simply by virtue of being a later model.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited May 16 '16 at 12:46









      T.J.L.

      3,93131742




      3,93131742










      answered May 16 '16 at 6:24









      AdamantAdamant

      84.4k21337448




      84.4k21337448













      • I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 6:35






      • 6





        The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 11:38






      • 4





        Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

        – Robert Harvey
        May 16 '16 at 14:34






      • 1





        @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

        – Ellesedil
        May 16 '16 at 16:30











      • Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

        – algiogia
        May 17 '16 at 11:40



















      • I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 6:35






      • 6





        The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 11:38






      • 4





        Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

        – Robert Harvey
        May 16 '16 at 14:34






      • 1





        @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

        – Ellesedil
        May 16 '16 at 16:30











      • Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

        – algiogia
        May 17 '16 at 11:40

















      I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 6:35





      I'd like to think I'd have written an answer of similar quality had I not been on my phone... Great answer +1 👍

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 6:35




      6




      6





      The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 11:38





      The EMH Mark I was finished in 2371 (see here]. On that point I'm not sure how pertinent that quote from 'Caretaker' - you may wish to cite a different source

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 11:38




      4




      4





      Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

      – Robert Harvey
      May 16 '16 at 14:34





      Lore isn't exactly a reliable source.

      – Robert Harvey
      May 16 '16 at 14:34




      1




      1





      @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

      – Ellesedil
      May 16 '16 at 16:30





      @RobertHarvey: Agreed. I find any assertions from Lore himself to be suspect since he's always more interested in his own angle (whatever that happens to be) than the truth or anyone else's best interests.

      – Ellesedil
      May 16 '16 at 16:30













      Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

      – algiogia
      May 17 '16 at 11:40





      Wasn't Data born ~400 years ago?

      – algiogia
      May 17 '16 at 11:40













      27














      They're different tech



      The important thing to recognise is that these are two vastly different pieces of technology, running on quite different hardware (one a Starfleet ship's computer and Hilo-emitters, the other a positronic brain). So there is a difference in programming them by virtue of their makeup.



      Intentional design



      The other factor and probably most important one is to remember that Data was made by Soong after Lore because Lore's emotions twisted. Data was designed and programmed intentionally to be emotionless because of Lore's problems.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 1





        This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

        – Ixrec
        May 16 '16 at 8:28






      • 3





        @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 8:29








      • 2





        Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

        – a CVn
        May 16 '16 at 18:54






      • 2





        @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

        – Harry Johnston
        May 17 '16 at 0:52
















      27














      They're different tech



      The important thing to recognise is that these are two vastly different pieces of technology, running on quite different hardware (one a Starfleet ship's computer and Hilo-emitters, the other a positronic brain). So there is a difference in programming them by virtue of their makeup.



      Intentional design



      The other factor and probably most important one is to remember that Data was made by Soong after Lore because Lore's emotions twisted. Data was designed and programmed intentionally to be emotionless because of Lore's problems.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 1





        This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

        – Ixrec
        May 16 '16 at 8:28






      • 3





        @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 8:29








      • 2





        Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

        – a CVn
        May 16 '16 at 18:54






      • 2





        @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

        – Harry Johnston
        May 17 '16 at 0:52














      27












      27








      27







      They're different tech



      The important thing to recognise is that these are two vastly different pieces of technology, running on quite different hardware (one a Starfleet ship's computer and Hilo-emitters, the other a positronic brain). So there is a difference in programming them by virtue of their makeup.



      Intentional design



      The other factor and probably most important one is to remember that Data was made by Soong after Lore because Lore's emotions twisted. Data was designed and programmed intentionally to be emotionless because of Lore's problems.






      share|improve this answer















      They're different tech



      The important thing to recognise is that these are two vastly different pieces of technology, running on quite different hardware (one a Starfleet ship's computer and Hilo-emitters, the other a positronic brain). So there is a difference in programming them by virtue of their makeup.



      Intentional design



      The other factor and probably most important one is to remember that Data was made by Soong after Lore because Lore's emotions twisted. Data was designed and programmed intentionally to be emotionless because of Lore's problems.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited May 16 '16 at 6:36

























      answered May 16 '16 at 6:26









      Often RightOften Right

      49.1k20231468




      49.1k20231468








      • 1





        This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

        – Ixrec
        May 16 '16 at 8:28






      • 3





        @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 8:29








      • 2





        Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

        – a CVn
        May 16 '16 at 18:54






      • 2





        @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

        – Harry Johnston
        May 17 '16 at 0:52














      • 1





        This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

        – Ixrec
        May 16 '16 at 8:28






      • 3





        @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

        – Often Right
        May 16 '16 at 8:29








      • 2





        Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

        – a CVn
        May 16 '16 at 18:54






      • 2





        @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

        – Harry Johnston
        May 17 '16 at 0:52








      1




      1





      This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

      – Ixrec
      May 16 '16 at 8:28





      This raises the potentially very interesting question of how they prevented the EMH from having Lore's problems.

      – Ixrec
      May 16 '16 at 8:28




      3




      3





      @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 8:29







      @Ixrec take a look at VOY 'The Darkling' where they look at a similar issue

      – Often Right
      May 16 '16 at 8:29






      2




      2





      Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

      – a CVn
      May 16 '16 at 18:54





      Hilo-emitters? That feels hollow.

      – a CVn
      May 16 '16 at 18:54




      2




      2





      @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

      – Harry Johnston
      May 17 '16 at 0:52





      @Ixrec: the EMH was designed strictly for short-term use. The question wasn't expected to arise.

      – Harry Johnston
      May 17 '16 at 0:52











      17














      Besides the answers already mentioned (Data being intentionally stripped of emotions and the Doctor being later technology), there's another aspect worth considering: that the Doctor does not truly have emotions.



      Judging by the Lewis Zimmerman we see in in the episode "Life Line", the Doctor was modeled after an irritable, sarcastic man. The Doctor's complaints about the crew and other emotions may be no more than a simulation Zimmerman designed to replicate his own commentary. Most holographic characters display emotion, and the Doctor's may be as superficial as the melodramatic characters we see in Reginald Barclay's holoprograms.






      share|improve this answer
























      • Strong AI vs weak AI :)

        – Jane S
        May 17 '16 at 7:10











      • I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 17:02








      • 1





        @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

        – Shane
        May 17 '16 at 20:18






      • 1





        @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 20:57
















      17














      Besides the answers already mentioned (Data being intentionally stripped of emotions and the Doctor being later technology), there's another aspect worth considering: that the Doctor does not truly have emotions.



      Judging by the Lewis Zimmerman we see in in the episode "Life Line", the Doctor was modeled after an irritable, sarcastic man. The Doctor's complaints about the crew and other emotions may be no more than a simulation Zimmerman designed to replicate his own commentary. Most holographic characters display emotion, and the Doctor's may be as superficial as the melodramatic characters we see in Reginald Barclay's holoprograms.






      share|improve this answer
























      • Strong AI vs weak AI :)

        – Jane S
        May 17 '16 at 7:10











      • I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 17:02








      • 1





        @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

        – Shane
        May 17 '16 at 20:18






      • 1





        @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 20:57














      17












      17








      17







      Besides the answers already mentioned (Data being intentionally stripped of emotions and the Doctor being later technology), there's another aspect worth considering: that the Doctor does not truly have emotions.



      Judging by the Lewis Zimmerman we see in in the episode "Life Line", the Doctor was modeled after an irritable, sarcastic man. The Doctor's complaints about the crew and other emotions may be no more than a simulation Zimmerman designed to replicate his own commentary. Most holographic characters display emotion, and the Doctor's may be as superficial as the melodramatic characters we see in Reginald Barclay's holoprograms.






      share|improve this answer













      Besides the answers already mentioned (Data being intentionally stripped of emotions and the Doctor being later technology), there's another aspect worth considering: that the Doctor does not truly have emotions.



      Judging by the Lewis Zimmerman we see in in the episode "Life Line", the Doctor was modeled after an irritable, sarcastic man. The Doctor's complaints about the crew and other emotions may be no more than a simulation Zimmerman designed to replicate his own commentary. Most holographic characters display emotion, and the Doctor's may be as superficial as the melodramatic characters we see in Reginald Barclay's holoprograms.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered May 16 '16 at 10:51









      exuperoexupero

      31416




      31416













      • Strong AI vs weak AI :)

        – Jane S
        May 17 '16 at 7:10











      • I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 17:02








      • 1





        @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

        – Shane
        May 17 '16 at 20:18






      • 1





        @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 20:57



















      • Strong AI vs weak AI :)

        – Jane S
        May 17 '16 at 7:10











      • I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 17:02








      • 1





        @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

        – Shane
        May 17 '16 at 20:18






      • 1





        @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

        – Izkata
        May 17 '16 at 20:57

















      Strong AI vs weak AI :)

      – Jane S
      May 17 '16 at 7:10





      Strong AI vs weak AI :)

      – Jane S
      May 17 '16 at 7:10













      I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

      – Izkata
      May 17 '16 at 17:02







      I think this (and Lightness's) are the most accurate answers, particularly the second half. The Doctor was designed to imitate, and this is strongly shown in how the Voyager crew interact with him in the first season or two (aside from Kes). That he grew into a real personality with emotions is an accident, but something that has happened a few times with Federation technology.

      – Izkata
      May 17 '16 at 17:02






      1




      1





      @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

      – Shane
      May 17 '16 at 20:18





      @Izkata Not an accident. They had to keep expanding and altering his program to allow that to happen.

      – Shane
      May 17 '16 at 20:18




      1




      1





      @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

      – Izkata
      May 17 '16 at 20:57





      @Shane IMO it happened before that, at Kes's urging, when he decided to go ahead and start expanding his program

      – Izkata
      May 17 '16 at 20:57











      15














      Just to add a little more to the mix. Out of universe, Data having no emotions gave the writers and story a place to explore emotions. Several times in TNG Data displays, what may be considered as, simple emotions. He has preferences, and most importantly desire. He is "fascinated" quite often and even displays sadness, angst, and hope.



      The trick is that he doesn't seem to know he is doing it. Sure Data's emotions may be underdeveloped, but in several Data story lines, I get the distinct sensation that Soong wanted Data to develop his emotions naturally instead of being given a prescribed set of emotion algorithms. In fact that was one of the lessons learned from Lore.



      The doctor on the other hand was designed to be an emergency replacement, running for only a couple of hours in a crisis. Generally thought of as a massive failure, the MK1 EMH's emotions got in the way more often then not. (see DSN episode and Voyager's Lifeline episode) But the emotions were programmed in to make it easier to relate to patients.



      Simply put, they both had "emotions" but they started from different places. The doctor's was programmed in, and Data's was left to be discovered.






      share|improve this answer






























        15














        Just to add a little more to the mix. Out of universe, Data having no emotions gave the writers and story a place to explore emotions. Several times in TNG Data displays, what may be considered as, simple emotions. He has preferences, and most importantly desire. He is "fascinated" quite often and even displays sadness, angst, and hope.



        The trick is that he doesn't seem to know he is doing it. Sure Data's emotions may be underdeveloped, but in several Data story lines, I get the distinct sensation that Soong wanted Data to develop his emotions naturally instead of being given a prescribed set of emotion algorithms. In fact that was one of the lessons learned from Lore.



        The doctor on the other hand was designed to be an emergency replacement, running for only a couple of hours in a crisis. Generally thought of as a massive failure, the MK1 EMH's emotions got in the way more often then not. (see DSN episode and Voyager's Lifeline episode) But the emotions were programmed in to make it easier to relate to patients.



        Simply put, they both had "emotions" but they started from different places. The doctor's was programmed in, and Data's was left to be discovered.






        share|improve this answer




























          15












          15








          15







          Just to add a little more to the mix. Out of universe, Data having no emotions gave the writers and story a place to explore emotions. Several times in TNG Data displays, what may be considered as, simple emotions. He has preferences, and most importantly desire. He is "fascinated" quite often and even displays sadness, angst, and hope.



          The trick is that he doesn't seem to know he is doing it. Sure Data's emotions may be underdeveloped, but in several Data story lines, I get the distinct sensation that Soong wanted Data to develop his emotions naturally instead of being given a prescribed set of emotion algorithms. In fact that was one of the lessons learned from Lore.



          The doctor on the other hand was designed to be an emergency replacement, running for only a couple of hours in a crisis. Generally thought of as a massive failure, the MK1 EMH's emotions got in the way more often then not. (see DSN episode and Voyager's Lifeline episode) But the emotions were programmed in to make it easier to relate to patients.



          Simply put, they both had "emotions" but they started from different places. The doctor's was programmed in, and Data's was left to be discovered.






          share|improve this answer















          Just to add a little more to the mix. Out of universe, Data having no emotions gave the writers and story a place to explore emotions. Several times in TNG Data displays, what may be considered as, simple emotions. He has preferences, and most importantly desire. He is "fascinated" quite often and even displays sadness, angst, and hope.



          The trick is that he doesn't seem to know he is doing it. Sure Data's emotions may be underdeveloped, but in several Data story lines, I get the distinct sensation that Soong wanted Data to develop his emotions naturally instead of being given a prescribed set of emotion algorithms. In fact that was one of the lessons learned from Lore.



          The doctor on the other hand was designed to be an emergency replacement, running for only a couple of hours in a crisis. Generally thought of as a massive failure, the MK1 EMH's emotions got in the way more often then not. (see DSN episode and Voyager's Lifeline episode) But the emotions were programmed in to make it easier to relate to patients.



          Simply put, they both had "emotions" but they started from different places. The doctor's was programmed in, and Data's was left to be discovered.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited May 16 '16 at 17:04









          Robert Fisher

          1235




          1235










          answered May 16 '16 at 14:48









          coteyrcoteyr

          549210




          549210























              15














              The holograms have the capability to draw upon the entire resources of the mainframe of the ship. We see this in the TNG episode, Ship in a Bottle, where Moriarty becomes self-aware. The programming of the ship mainframes is complex enough that it is apparently capable of creating self-aware AI. Housing that in a mobile brain is a hardware problem.



              In TNG's Measure of a Man, we learn that the Federation has not yet managed to recreate the unique hardware of Data. Data's emotion chip is a chip, a piece of hardware, not an update to his programming but instead an add-on.



              So it comes down to this: The software is fine, it's the hardware that is the issue.






              share|improve this answer





















              • 2





                This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

                – Shane
                May 17 '16 at 20:31











              • Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

                – Cees Timmerman
                May 18 '16 at 11:52
















              15














              The holograms have the capability to draw upon the entire resources of the mainframe of the ship. We see this in the TNG episode, Ship in a Bottle, where Moriarty becomes self-aware. The programming of the ship mainframes is complex enough that it is apparently capable of creating self-aware AI. Housing that in a mobile brain is a hardware problem.



              In TNG's Measure of a Man, we learn that the Federation has not yet managed to recreate the unique hardware of Data. Data's emotion chip is a chip, a piece of hardware, not an update to his programming but instead an add-on.



              So it comes down to this: The software is fine, it's the hardware that is the issue.






              share|improve this answer





















              • 2





                This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

                – Shane
                May 17 '16 at 20:31











              • Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

                – Cees Timmerman
                May 18 '16 at 11:52














              15












              15








              15







              The holograms have the capability to draw upon the entire resources of the mainframe of the ship. We see this in the TNG episode, Ship in a Bottle, where Moriarty becomes self-aware. The programming of the ship mainframes is complex enough that it is apparently capable of creating self-aware AI. Housing that in a mobile brain is a hardware problem.



              In TNG's Measure of a Man, we learn that the Federation has not yet managed to recreate the unique hardware of Data. Data's emotion chip is a chip, a piece of hardware, not an update to his programming but instead an add-on.



              So it comes down to this: The software is fine, it's the hardware that is the issue.






              share|improve this answer















              The holograms have the capability to draw upon the entire resources of the mainframe of the ship. We see this in the TNG episode, Ship in a Bottle, where Moriarty becomes self-aware. The programming of the ship mainframes is complex enough that it is apparently capable of creating self-aware AI. Housing that in a mobile brain is a hardware problem.



              In TNG's Measure of a Man, we learn that the Federation has not yet managed to recreate the unique hardware of Data. Data's emotion chip is a chip, a piece of hardware, not an update to his programming but instead an add-on.



              So it comes down to this: The software is fine, it's the hardware that is the issue.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited May 17 '16 at 7:57









              Basil Bourque

              1194




              1194










              answered May 16 '16 at 9:07









              BroklyniteBroklynite

              16.3k35682




              16.3k35682








              • 2





                This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

                – Shane
                May 17 '16 at 20:31











              • Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

                – Cees Timmerman
                May 18 '16 at 11:52














              • 2





                This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

                – Shane
                May 17 '16 at 20:31











              • Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

                – Cees Timmerman
                May 18 '16 at 11:52








              2




              2





              This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

              – Shane
              May 17 '16 at 20:31





              This is the right answer. The EMH is being run by a truly massive supercomputer. Literally the entire ship has its computer running through it. Data is being run on something the size of a head. Data is advanced not because he can outperform other computers. Data is advanced because he runs half as fast as other computers with only a percent the hardware. A raspberry pi isn't more powerful than a computer from 20 years ago, but if I brought it back in time, people would be clamboring to dismantle the high tech wizardry.

              – Shane
              May 17 '16 at 20:31













              Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

              – Cees Timmerman
              May 18 '16 at 11:52





              Lore is pretty self-aware, and an older model than Data, who is also self-aware but not as homicidal.

              – Cees Timmerman
              May 18 '16 at 11:52











              8














              tl;dr: Apples and oranges.



              There are several problems with this question.



              First, we've never discovered for sure that the EMH does "feel emotion". Right up to the end of the show, several characters (despite having become his "friend") still considered his personality a mere simulation, and a hearing in late Season 7 declined to confidently declare that he had sentience. The only person to outright state this was the alien in Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy and, at the time, he was wrong about the Doctor in many, many ways.



              (Mind you, Star Trek has always been unclear and contradictory on the matter of whether its holograms could be self-aware; see e.g. Moriarty in early TNG. It's possible that this capability has been effectively retconned to a degree as holographic characters became a core part of the lore.)



              Second, Data was eventually imbued with emotions (with tech that far predated the EMH), and it has always been made clear that Data is actually a sentient "lifeform". These emotions were assuredly "real".



              I just don't think that the two can be compared in this manner.






              share|improve this answer



















              • 2





                The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

                – Schwern
                May 16 '16 at 21:01













              • "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

                – user44432
                May 16 '16 at 21:56






              • 2





                @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

                – Lightness Races in Orbit
                May 16 '16 at 22:46








              • 1





                @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

                – Schwern
                May 17 '16 at 2:21








              • 2





                So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

                – JDługosz
                May 17 '16 at 8:49


















              8














              tl;dr: Apples and oranges.



              There are several problems with this question.



              First, we've never discovered for sure that the EMH does "feel emotion". Right up to the end of the show, several characters (despite having become his "friend") still considered his personality a mere simulation, and a hearing in late Season 7 declined to confidently declare that he had sentience. The only person to outright state this was the alien in Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy and, at the time, he was wrong about the Doctor in many, many ways.



              (Mind you, Star Trek has always been unclear and contradictory on the matter of whether its holograms could be self-aware; see e.g. Moriarty in early TNG. It's possible that this capability has been effectively retconned to a degree as holographic characters became a core part of the lore.)



              Second, Data was eventually imbued with emotions (with tech that far predated the EMH), and it has always been made clear that Data is actually a sentient "lifeform". These emotions were assuredly "real".



              I just don't think that the two can be compared in this manner.






              share|improve this answer



















              • 2





                The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

                – Schwern
                May 16 '16 at 21:01













              • "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

                – user44432
                May 16 '16 at 21:56






              • 2





                @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

                – Lightness Races in Orbit
                May 16 '16 at 22:46








              • 1





                @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

                – Schwern
                May 17 '16 at 2:21








              • 2





                So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

                – JDługosz
                May 17 '16 at 8:49
















              8












              8








              8







              tl;dr: Apples and oranges.



              There are several problems with this question.



              First, we've never discovered for sure that the EMH does "feel emotion". Right up to the end of the show, several characters (despite having become his "friend") still considered his personality a mere simulation, and a hearing in late Season 7 declined to confidently declare that he had sentience. The only person to outright state this was the alien in Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy and, at the time, he was wrong about the Doctor in many, many ways.



              (Mind you, Star Trek has always been unclear and contradictory on the matter of whether its holograms could be self-aware; see e.g. Moriarty in early TNG. It's possible that this capability has been effectively retconned to a degree as holographic characters became a core part of the lore.)



              Second, Data was eventually imbued with emotions (with tech that far predated the EMH), and it has always been made clear that Data is actually a sentient "lifeform". These emotions were assuredly "real".



              I just don't think that the two can be compared in this manner.






              share|improve this answer













              tl;dr: Apples and oranges.



              There are several problems with this question.



              First, we've never discovered for sure that the EMH does "feel emotion". Right up to the end of the show, several characters (despite having become his "friend") still considered his personality a mere simulation, and a hearing in late Season 7 declined to confidently declare that he had sentience. The only person to outright state this was the alien in Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy and, at the time, he was wrong about the Doctor in many, many ways.



              (Mind you, Star Trek has always been unclear and contradictory on the matter of whether its holograms could be self-aware; see e.g. Moriarty in early TNG. It's possible that this capability has been effectively retconned to a degree as holographic characters became a core part of the lore.)



              Second, Data was eventually imbued with emotions (with tech that far predated the EMH), and it has always been made clear that Data is actually a sentient "lifeform". These emotions were assuredly "real".



              I just don't think that the two can be compared in this manner.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered May 16 '16 at 9:44









              Lightness Races in OrbitLightness Races in Orbit

              9,72733665




              9,72733665








              • 2





                The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

                – Schwern
                May 16 '16 at 21:01













              • "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

                – user44432
                May 16 '16 at 21:56






              • 2





                @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

                – Lightness Races in Orbit
                May 16 '16 at 22:46








              • 1





                @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

                – Schwern
                May 17 '16 at 2:21








              • 2





                So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

                – JDługosz
                May 17 '16 at 8:49
















              • 2





                The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

                – Schwern
                May 16 '16 at 21:01













              • "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

                – user44432
                May 16 '16 at 21:56






              • 2





                @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

                – Lightness Races in Orbit
                May 16 '16 at 22:46








              • 1





                @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

                – Schwern
                May 17 '16 at 2:21








              • 2





                So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

                – JDługosz
                May 17 '16 at 8:49










              2




              2





              The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

              – Schwern
              May 16 '16 at 21:01







              The first premise assumes there's a meaningful distinction between "simulating" emotions and "feeling" emotions and has a meat bias. Are humans meat "simulating" emotions? Science says if you can't distinguish between the two, they're the same. Part of the point of ambiguous characters like Moriarty, Data, and The Doctor are to question this meat bias. As to the second point, Data's emotions come from a chip. What makes them any more "real" than the Doctor's? Why isn't Data "simulating" emotions? When was it made clear his emotions are "real"? Did the show just declare them so?

              – Schwern
              May 16 '16 at 21:01















              "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

              – user44432
              May 16 '16 at 21:56





              "The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth--it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true. -- Ecclesiastes"

              – user44432
              May 16 '16 at 21:56




              2




              2





              @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              May 16 '16 at 22:46







              @Schwern: There is a huge body of scientific research and philosophical debate over what constitutes self-awareness. I don't think there's much value in reproducing it all here, but surely you have a library in your city or town? The proposition is that Data's neural net is capable of creating self-awareness, whereas the EMH is more like Siri -- he might sound human and self-aware, but he's not. Being programmed to say "I'm self-aware" is not the same as actually being so. But, yes, the fascinating question is "which is the case?" For the EMH, nobody knows; for Data, yes, the show says so.

              – Lightness Races in Orbit
              May 16 '16 at 22:46






              1




              1





              @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

              – Schwern
              May 17 '16 at 2:21







              @LightnessRacesinOrbit "Yes, the show says so"...does it? Episodes like Measure Of A Man answer the question "is Data alive" with a resounding "maybe". Do you have a different example? I don't know how you conclude The Doctor and Data are so different. The Doc struggles with his identity, composes opera, daydreams, has friends, ambitions, romantic interests, writes a novel, advances medical knowledge... like Data. If it's just neural net vs holographic matrix (whatever that is) that's mechanistic; like arguing Data can't have emotions because he's not made of meat.

              – Schwern
              May 17 '16 at 2:21






              2




              2





              So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

              – JDługosz
              May 17 '16 at 8:49







              So we can decide that the entity posting as @LightnessRacesinOrbit is not capable of feeling and self-awareness in the same sens that we (the readers) are, even if programmed to insist otherwise. Turing test, anyone?

              – JDługosz
              May 17 '16 at 8:49













              0














              A common explanation I don't see represented here is that Voyager's computer actually has biological circuitry, while Data is entirely mechanical. It is often proposed that the bio-neural gel packs are at least part of the reason that the EMH was so easily able to become more human in his sentience.



              That said, there are other examples of sentient holograms (all created after Data) that seemed to have emotions. Moriarty seemed to have emotions, even though it took a lot of the ship's power to create him. Minuet seemed to have emotions when the Bynars temporarily upgraded the holodeck system in order to lure in Picard and Riker. Vic Fontain seems to have an emotional awareness in his counseling showing at least greater emotional awareness than Data. And the Fair Haven folk became self-aware and expressed the emotion of fear as their main plot.



              Only the latter were made on a ship with bio-neural gel packs, which would seem to disprove this theory. But I note that the only other accidental formation of emotions took a lot of the ship's power to do so, so it's possible the bio-neural gel packs make emotions easier to form.



              Anyways, this a common fan speculation to the point that it was originally included on Memory Alpha until removed for being non-canon. It was on so many sites that people assumed it must be canon.





              share




























                0














                A common explanation I don't see represented here is that Voyager's computer actually has biological circuitry, while Data is entirely mechanical. It is often proposed that the bio-neural gel packs are at least part of the reason that the EMH was so easily able to become more human in his sentience.



                That said, there are other examples of sentient holograms (all created after Data) that seemed to have emotions. Moriarty seemed to have emotions, even though it took a lot of the ship's power to create him. Minuet seemed to have emotions when the Bynars temporarily upgraded the holodeck system in order to lure in Picard and Riker. Vic Fontain seems to have an emotional awareness in his counseling showing at least greater emotional awareness than Data. And the Fair Haven folk became self-aware and expressed the emotion of fear as their main plot.



                Only the latter were made on a ship with bio-neural gel packs, which would seem to disprove this theory. But I note that the only other accidental formation of emotions took a lot of the ship's power to do so, so it's possible the bio-neural gel packs make emotions easier to form.



                Anyways, this a common fan speculation to the point that it was originally included on Memory Alpha until removed for being non-canon. It was on so many sites that people assumed it must be canon.





                share


























                  0












                  0








                  0







                  A common explanation I don't see represented here is that Voyager's computer actually has biological circuitry, while Data is entirely mechanical. It is often proposed that the bio-neural gel packs are at least part of the reason that the EMH was so easily able to become more human in his sentience.



                  That said, there are other examples of sentient holograms (all created after Data) that seemed to have emotions. Moriarty seemed to have emotions, even though it took a lot of the ship's power to create him. Minuet seemed to have emotions when the Bynars temporarily upgraded the holodeck system in order to lure in Picard and Riker. Vic Fontain seems to have an emotional awareness in his counseling showing at least greater emotional awareness than Data. And the Fair Haven folk became self-aware and expressed the emotion of fear as their main plot.



                  Only the latter were made on a ship with bio-neural gel packs, which would seem to disprove this theory. But I note that the only other accidental formation of emotions took a lot of the ship's power to do so, so it's possible the bio-neural gel packs make emotions easier to form.



                  Anyways, this a common fan speculation to the point that it was originally included on Memory Alpha until removed for being non-canon. It was on so many sites that people assumed it must be canon.





                  share













                  A common explanation I don't see represented here is that Voyager's computer actually has biological circuitry, while Data is entirely mechanical. It is often proposed that the bio-neural gel packs are at least part of the reason that the EMH was so easily able to become more human in his sentience.



                  That said, there are other examples of sentient holograms (all created after Data) that seemed to have emotions. Moriarty seemed to have emotions, even though it took a lot of the ship's power to create him. Minuet seemed to have emotions when the Bynars temporarily upgraded the holodeck system in order to lure in Picard and Riker. Vic Fontain seems to have an emotional awareness in his counseling showing at least greater emotional awareness than Data. And the Fair Haven folk became self-aware and expressed the emotion of fear as their main plot.



                  Only the latter were made on a ship with bio-neural gel packs, which would seem to disprove this theory. But I note that the only other accidental formation of emotions took a lot of the ship's power to do so, so it's possible the bio-neural gel packs make emotions easier to form.



                  Anyways, this a common fan speculation to the point that it was originally included on Memory Alpha until removed for being non-canon. It was on so many sites that people assumed it must be canon.






                  share











                  share


                  share










                  answered 5 mins ago









                  trlklytrlkly

                  503311




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