Translation norms: a dash instead of “esse”












4















What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?




  • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

  • Option 2:
    cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

  • Option 3 (possibly): yours


Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










share|improve this question









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    4















    What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?




    • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

    • Option 2:
      cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

    • Option 3 (possibly): yours


    Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      4












      4








      4








      What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?




      • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

      • Option 2:
        cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

      • Option 3 (possibly): yours


      Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?




      • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

      • Option 2:
        cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

      • Option 3 (possibly): yours


      Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.







      english-to-latin-translation sentence-translation






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 16 hours ago









      Joonas Ilmavirta

      49.2k1271287




      49.2k1271287






      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked 20 hours ago









      Ecr iosEcr ios

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      213




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      New contributor





      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            15 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago





















          3














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala





          • no need for 'est'


          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            16 hours ago












          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            15 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago


















          5














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer


























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            15 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago
















          5












          5








          5







          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer















          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 12 hours ago

























          answered 16 hours ago









          Joonas IlmavirtaJoonas Ilmavirta

          49.2k1271287




          49.2k1271287













          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            15 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago





















          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            15 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            15 hours ago



















          You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

          – Ecr ios
          15 hours ago





          You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

          – Ecr ios
          15 hours ago













          @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

          – Joonas Ilmavirta
          15 hours ago





          @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

          – Joonas Ilmavirta
          15 hours ago




          1




          1





          Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

          – Ecr ios
          15 hours ago







          Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

          – Ecr ios
          15 hours ago













          3














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala





          • no need for 'est'


          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            16 hours ago
















          3














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala





          • no need for 'est'


          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer
























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            16 hours ago














          3












          3








          3







          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala





          • no need for 'est'


          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer













          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala





          • no need for 'est'


          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 16 hours ago









          HughHugh

          5,5852616




          5,5852616













          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            16 hours ago



















          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            16 hours ago

















          Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

          – Ecr ios
          16 hours ago





          Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

          – Ecr ios
          16 hours ago










          Ecr ios is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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          Ecr ios is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












          Ecr ios is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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