Is Sauron a god or just an evil force?
Can Sauron be considered a god? If not, why?
tolkiens-legendarium sauron maiar
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
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Can Sauron be considered a god? If not, why?
tolkiens-legendarium sauron maiar
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
1
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Can Sauron be considered a god? If not, why?
tolkiens-legendarium sauron maiar
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Can Sauron be considered a god? If not, why?
tolkiens-legendarium sauron maiar
tolkiens-legendarium sauron maiar
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
edited 33 secs ago
Stormblessed
681220
681220
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
asked 58 mins ago
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
122
122
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
nuggetsnack is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
1
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
1
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago
1
1
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
1
1
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
To borrow from another answer, the TL;DR answer is (emphasis mine)
No
Sauron wasn't always evil. He began his life as a Maia, essentially an angel, and of the same class as Gandalf and the other wizards. He was eventually corrupted by Morgoth, and became his most powerful lieutenant, but he never really had the same motives as Morgoth. Morgoth was one of the Valar (demigods or Archangels), and was far more powerful than Sauron; in fact, Morgoth was the second most powerful entity in the universe after Eru Ilúvatar (who is basically analogous to the Judeo-Christian god). While Morgoth was still around, Sauron seems to have served him very faithfully, but after Morgoth's defeat and exile into the void, Sauron showed himself to be somewhat different from his former master.
So to sum it up, you have on the power charts
- Eru Ilúvatar (God)
- Morgoth
- Sauron
Sauron wants to be God, he just never gets there
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
In The Silmarillion, we see the origin of many of the most important beings in Tolkein's world of Middle Earth. Amongst the spiritual beings collectively referred to as Ainur, there were two orders of beings relevant to the discussion: the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar were greatly more powerful than the Maiar, and many (or maybe all) Maiar served one of the Valar. The Valar are equivalent to a pantheon of Gods, albeit subservient to a yet greater and more abstract creator being referred to as Eru Ilúvatar. The Maiar, on the other hand, are more like what most people in a European-based culture would think of as "angels".
So now I can answer your question:
Sauron was a Maiar, as were the wizards Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and a couple of others. This made him much less powerful than the Valar; in fact, he served the Valar Morgoth.
That he seemed more powerful than the wizards had to do with the condition that the wizards did not take over and interfere with the lands of Middle Earth.
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
To borrow from another answer, the TL;DR answer is (emphasis mine)
No
Sauron wasn't always evil. He began his life as a Maia, essentially an angel, and of the same class as Gandalf and the other wizards. He was eventually corrupted by Morgoth, and became his most powerful lieutenant, but he never really had the same motives as Morgoth. Morgoth was one of the Valar (demigods or Archangels), and was far more powerful than Sauron; in fact, Morgoth was the second most powerful entity in the universe after Eru Ilúvatar (who is basically analogous to the Judeo-Christian god). While Morgoth was still around, Sauron seems to have served him very faithfully, but after Morgoth's defeat and exile into the void, Sauron showed himself to be somewhat different from his former master.
So to sum it up, you have on the power charts
- Eru Ilúvatar (God)
- Morgoth
- Sauron
Sauron wants to be God, he just never gets there
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
To borrow from another answer, the TL;DR answer is (emphasis mine)
No
Sauron wasn't always evil. He began his life as a Maia, essentially an angel, and of the same class as Gandalf and the other wizards. He was eventually corrupted by Morgoth, and became his most powerful lieutenant, but he never really had the same motives as Morgoth. Morgoth was one of the Valar (demigods or Archangels), and was far more powerful than Sauron; in fact, Morgoth was the second most powerful entity in the universe after Eru Ilúvatar (who is basically analogous to the Judeo-Christian god). While Morgoth was still around, Sauron seems to have served him very faithfully, but after Morgoth's defeat and exile into the void, Sauron showed himself to be somewhat different from his former master.
So to sum it up, you have on the power charts
- Eru Ilúvatar (God)
- Morgoth
- Sauron
Sauron wants to be God, he just never gets there
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
To borrow from another answer, the TL;DR answer is (emphasis mine)
No
Sauron wasn't always evil. He began his life as a Maia, essentially an angel, and of the same class as Gandalf and the other wizards. He was eventually corrupted by Morgoth, and became his most powerful lieutenant, but he never really had the same motives as Morgoth. Morgoth was one of the Valar (demigods or Archangels), and was far more powerful than Sauron; in fact, Morgoth was the second most powerful entity in the universe after Eru Ilúvatar (who is basically analogous to the Judeo-Christian god). While Morgoth was still around, Sauron seems to have served him very faithfully, but after Morgoth's defeat and exile into the void, Sauron showed himself to be somewhat different from his former master.
So to sum it up, you have on the power charts
- Eru Ilúvatar (God)
- Morgoth
- Sauron
Sauron wants to be God, he just never gets there
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
To borrow from another answer, the TL;DR answer is (emphasis mine)
No
Sauron wasn't always evil. He began his life as a Maia, essentially an angel, and of the same class as Gandalf and the other wizards. He was eventually corrupted by Morgoth, and became his most powerful lieutenant, but he never really had the same motives as Morgoth. Morgoth was one of the Valar (demigods or Archangels), and was far more powerful than Sauron; in fact, Morgoth was the second most powerful entity in the universe after Eru Ilúvatar (who is basically analogous to the Judeo-Christian god). While Morgoth was still around, Sauron seems to have served him very faithfully, but after Morgoth's defeat and exile into the void, Sauron showed himself to be somewhat different from his former master.
So to sum it up, you have on the power charts
- Eru Ilúvatar (God)
- Morgoth
- Sauron
Sauron wants to be God, he just never gets there
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
answered 47 mins ago
MachavityMachavity
24.7k575141
24.7k575141
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
I know he wasn't the most powerful. However, what keeps from making him a god? He had power over other evil forces in Middle-Earth e.g. orcs and Olog-hai.
– nuggetsnack
44 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
@nuggetsnack What stopped him was most of Middle-Earth showing up on his front doorstep and fighting a war that destroyed him. The One Ring is simply his bank-shot to try and regain power someday
– Machavity
42 mins ago
1
1
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@nuggetsnack: If by a "god" you mean "a powerful being" then sure. But a "god" that is defeated at least three times that we know of by humans and elves is a pretty miserable excuse for a god.
– Mark Olson
38 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
@Machavity I didn't mean "god" as in king or lord. Like how the angel Lucifer never got the chance to take over the world, but Satanists still worship him as if he had. Lucifer tried to, yes. But he never did.
– nuggetsnack
37 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
Your confusion about what Satanists really believe is simultaneously offensive and amusing.
– cryptarch
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
In The Silmarillion, we see the origin of many of the most important beings in Tolkein's world of Middle Earth. Amongst the spiritual beings collectively referred to as Ainur, there were two orders of beings relevant to the discussion: the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar were greatly more powerful than the Maiar, and many (or maybe all) Maiar served one of the Valar. The Valar are equivalent to a pantheon of Gods, albeit subservient to a yet greater and more abstract creator being referred to as Eru Ilúvatar. The Maiar, on the other hand, are more like what most people in a European-based culture would think of as "angels".
So now I can answer your question:
Sauron was a Maiar, as were the wizards Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and a couple of others. This made him much less powerful than the Valar; in fact, he served the Valar Morgoth.
That he seemed more powerful than the wizards had to do with the condition that the wizards did not take over and interfere with the lands of Middle Earth.
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
In The Silmarillion, we see the origin of many of the most important beings in Tolkein's world of Middle Earth. Amongst the spiritual beings collectively referred to as Ainur, there were two orders of beings relevant to the discussion: the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar were greatly more powerful than the Maiar, and many (or maybe all) Maiar served one of the Valar. The Valar are equivalent to a pantheon of Gods, albeit subservient to a yet greater and more abstract creator being referred to as Eru Ilúvatar. The Maiar, on the other hand, are more like what most people in a European-based culture would think of as "angels".
So now I can answer your question:
Sauron was a Maiar, as were the wizards Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and a couple of others. This made him much less powerful than the Valar; in fact, he served the Valar Morgoth.
That he seemed more powerful than the wizards had to do with the condition that the wizards did not take over and interfere with the lands of Middle Earth.
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
In The Silmarillion, we see the origin of many of the most important beings in Tolkein's world of Middle Earth. Amongst the spiritual beings collectively referred to as Ainur, there were two orders of beings relevant to the discussion: the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar were greatly more powerful than the Maiar, and many (or maybe all) Maiar served one of the Valar. The Valar are equivalent to a pantheon of Gods, albeit subservient to a yet greater and more abstract creator being referred to as Eru Ilúvatar. The Maiar, on the other hand, are more like what most people in a European-based culture would think of as "angels".
So now I can answer your question:
Sauron was a Maiar, as were the wizards Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and a couple of others. This made him much less powerful than the Valar; in fact, he served the Valar Morgoth.
That he seemed more powerful than the wizards had to do with the condition that the wizards did not take over and interfere with the lands of Middle Earth.
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
In The Silmarillion, we see the origin of many of the most important beings in Tolkein's world of Middle Earth. Amongst the spiritual beings collectively referred to as Ainur, there were two orders of beings relevant to the discussion: the Valar and the Maiar.
The Valar were greatly more powerful than the Maiar, and many (or maybe all) Maiar served one of the Valar. The Valar are equivalent to a pantheon of Gods, albeit subservient to a yet greater and more abstract creator being referred to as Eru Ilúvatar. The Maiar, on the other hand, are more like what most people in a European-based culture would think of as "angels".
So now I can answer your question:
Sauron was a Maiar, as were the wizards Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and a couple of others. This made him much less powerful than the Valar; in fact, he served the Valar Morgoth.
That he seemed more powerful than the wizards had to do with the condition that the wizards did not take over and interfere with the lands of Middle Earth.
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
answered 46 mins ago
cryptarchcryptarch
536112
536112
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
Some angels are considered as "gods" by many people around the world. Personally, I consider Sauron to be a demon; an evil spirit. I guess it all depends on how one defines a god.
– nuggetsnack
41 mins ago
1
1
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
@nuggetsnack You seem to be saying that you had already decided in advance what Answer you want; if there is no confusion in your mind then why did you ask the question? I've given the reason why Sauron is not a God: because there is an order of beings greater than him, who constitute a Tolkeinian Pantheon, and one of whom is Sauron's master.
– cryptarch
39 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
The difference is the wording. "God" means a being who is independent, self-existent, all-powerful, omniscient. "god" is a being believed to have more than natural attributes and powers.
– nuggetsnack
35 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
@nuggetsnack If you would like to dictate artificial definitions as a constraint on what answers you will accept, you should make it clear in your Question.
– cryptarch
32 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god here is the definition of god if you don't accept mine
– nuggetsnack
20 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
nuggetsnack is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
nuggetsnack is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
nuggetsnack is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
nuggetsnack is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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1
Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about what you mean by a "god". You're pretty clearly not using the Judaeo-Christian definition.
– Mark Olson
36 mins ago
No, I don't mean an all-powerful, indestructible being. Here is the definition of "god". en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
– nuggetsnack
23 mins ago
Two points: First, There's actually more than one definition in your reference. It would help the clarity of your question of you took your preferred definition and added it to the question. Secondly, you really ought to judge creatures in Tolkien's universe by his rules (as best we can discern them) and not by the rules of some other book or game or culture.
– Mark Olson
19 mins ago
That's just the problem. So many people define a god differently, which makes it hard for me to answer his question. I have been searching for a word that describes Sauron perfectly and have only found one: demon. What are Tolkien's rules? He only defines Ainur as "divine spirits". Naturally, we translate "divine spirits" to angels. However, Tolkien doesn't include words like angel or god.
– nuggetsnack
13 mins ago
1
Heh. If it makes it hard for you who are asking the question, how much harder is it for people answering it? (Also, in one of his letters, Tolkien explicitly says that Gandalf (and the other Istari) are angels. This would suggest that Sauron is one also, though at the start of the book it would appear that he is an angel in the process of falling (as is Saruman) and not one yet wholly fallen.)
– Mark Olson
8 mins ago