Is everyone really female in Ancillary Justice or is the ancillary just unable to tell?
In the book Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie most characters are indicated as female with the pronouns selected. There's some discussion about the main character being able to identify the sex because a language requires gender where as the normal language does not.
So is the ancillary, Breq, just assuming everyone is female, unless there's data to say otherwise, or are most characters really just female?
books imperial-radch ann-leckie
add a comment |
In the book Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie most characters are indicated as female with the pronouns selected. There's some discussion about the main character being able to identify the sex because a language requires gender where as the normal language does not.
So is the ancillary, Breq, just assuming everyone is female, unless there's data to say otherwise, or are most characters really just female?
books imperial-radch ann-leckie
1
I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52
add a comment |
In the book Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie most characters are indicated as female with the pronouns selected. There's some discussion about the main character being able to identify the sex because a language requires gender where as the normal language does not.
So is the ancillary, Breq, just assuming everyone is female, unless there's data to say otherwise, or are most characters really just female?
books imperial-radch ann-leckie
In the book Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie most characters are indicated as female with the pronouns selected. There's some discussion about the main character being able to identify the sex because a language requires gender where as the normal language does not.
So is the ancillary, Breq, just assuming everyone is female, unless there's data to say otherwise, or are most characters really just female?
books imperial-radch ann-leckie
books imperial-radch ann-leckie
edited May 1 '15 at 17:03
Niall C.
4,69153456
4,69153456
asked Jan 4 '14 at 2:15
TravisTravis
419311
419311
1
I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52
add a comment |
1
I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52
1
1
I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52
I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
It's neither. Some characters (e.g. Seivarden) are definitely male, and probably there are as many female as male Radchaai (at least I din't find any hint about a gender imbalance in the book.)
We are essentially reading a (fictional) English translation of a Radchaai book. The Radchaai language does not mark gender in any way, but in English, we do not have gender-neutral pronouns, so the (fictional) translator has to make a choice. Usually, people chose the male pronoun in this case, but Ann Leckie chose the female pronoun.
Normal Radchaai seem to be able to recognize one's gender, but Breq has trouble doing so, maybe because a ship doesn't have sexual organs, and the ship had bot male and female ancillaries.
I think this quote from the book shows this well:
Since we weren't speaking Radchaai I had to take gender into
account--Strigan's language required it. The society she lived in
professed at the same time to believe gender was insignificant. Males
and females dressed, spoke, acted indistinguishably. And yet no one I'd
met had ever hesitated or guessed wrong- And they had invariably been
offended when I did hesitate or guess wrong. I hadn't learned the
trick of it. I'd been in Strigan's own apartment, seen her belongings,
and still wasn't sure what forms to use with her now.
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
add a comment |
In contrast to the answer by Jim Davis, I posit that the lack of explicit gender-related questions is intentional and exactly the point. The author has kept it so deliberately vague that it highlights only our own questions and assumptions about the role of gender (both in the stories we read and society in general).
In terms of the fictional universe, I think most Radchaai have little preference in gender. Breq's difficulty in guessing correctly is a little odd, but not entirely implausible when you consider the following:
- She's essentially a different species. When you look at monkeys in the zoo, can you immediately tell their genders without looking at their genitals?
- Radchaai in uniform all dress the same and may have similar haircuts, lack of facial hair, etc... which would make it more difficult for a non-human to tell, even one who is very capable in other areas (such as combat and technical functions).
- Most of the time, Justice of Toren relies more on data from its sensors and implant-uploads about emotional states, rather than actual facial recognition.
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
add a comment |
Breq refers to at least two characters (Seivarden in chapter 1 of Ancillary Justice and Uran, the younger brother whom Queter tried to protect from Raughd's coercion by blowing Raughd up, in Ancillary Mercy) as he in other languages and she in Radchaai and in the narration, but she messes up at first with Uran and is forced to guess with a bartender. Brother and sister are used along the same lines for Uran.
add a comment |
This makes it very hard to picture these characters and its confusing, so far Im very unpleased with this book and regret spending on it.
New contributor
add a comment |
I was discussing this just last night with my SF book club.
Our consensus is that
the Radchaai are human (though some are augmented)
As such they have two sexes
- Nothing in the book says anything about sexual preferences. For instance we do not know if any, most, or all of them are pan-sexual, or have the same distribution of homo- and hetero- sexuality as "we" do.
- There is nothing in the book to say anything about other sexes/genders, transsexuals, etc (vs, say LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, or Iain M Banks "Culture" novels, or even Heinlein's short story All You Zombies
- the Radchaai language does not distinguish between genders, but this does not prove the Radchaai are indifferent to sex in choosing partners. Note that English (which does require male or female pronouns) does not lexically mark "race" or for that matter hair colour or bra size, yet people will often choose sexual partners based on such features. We have words in English for all these things, but the language per se does not mark them or require them.
- Breq reports having difficulty deciding the sex of people from other cultures based only on external observables.
Our sentiments were that while Leckie told us about the absence of gender in the language, she told us nothing about the gender arrangements in Radchaai world. In particular, we do not know if there is gender discrimination. The feminists among us were left unsatisfied. (Not because we only want to read utopian feminism, but because interesting questions were not even asked, much less answered.) We know a great deal more about their gloves than their loves
We also found Breq's inability implausible, unless we are to think she's damaged, which we also doubted. It's hard to imagine a being capable of running a starship and able to fight very well being unable to do this.
There are many things to admire in this novel, but we did not admire it as an examination of gender.
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
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5 Answers
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It's neither. Some characters (e.g. Seivarden) are definitely male, and probably there are as many female as male Radchaai (at least I din't find any hint about a gender imbalance in the book.)
We are essentially reading a (fictional) English translation of a Radchaai book. The Radchaai language does not mark gender in any way, but in English, we do not have gender-neutral pronouns, so the (fictional) translator has to make a choice. Usually, people chose the male pronoun in this case, but Ann Leckie chose the female pronoun.
Normal Radchaai seem to be able to recognize one's gender, but Breq has trouble doing so, maybe because a ship doesn't have sexual organs, and the ship had bot male and female ancillaries.
I think this quote from the book shows this well:
Since we weren't speaking Radchaai I had to take gender into
account--Strigan's language required it. The society she lived in
professed at the same time to believe gender was insignificant. Males
and females dressed, spoke, acted indistinguishably. And yet no one I'd
met had ever hesitated or guessed wrong- And they had invariably been
offended when I did hesitate or guess wrong. I hadn't learned the
trick of it. I'd been in Strigan's own apartment, seen her belongings,
and still wasn't sure what forms to use with her now.
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
add a comment |
It's neither. Some characters (e.g. Seivarden) are definitely male, and probably there are as many female as male Radchaai (at least I din't find any hint about a gender imbalance in the book.)
We are essentially reading a (fictional) English translation of a Radchaai book. The Radchaai language does not mark gender in any way, but in English, we do not have gender-neutral pronouns, so the (fictional) translator has to make a choice. Usually, people chose the male pronoun in this case, but Ann Leckie chose the female pronoun.
Normal Radchaai seem to be able to recognize one's gender, but Breq has trouble doing so, maybe because a ship doesn't have sexual organs, and the ship had bot male and female ancillaries.
I think this quote from the book shows this well:
Since we weren't speaking Radchaai I had to take gender into
account--Strigan's language required it. The society she lived in
professed at the same time to believe gender was insignificant. Males
and females dressed, spoke, acted indistinguishably. And yet no one I'd
met had ever hesitated or guessed wrong- And they had invariably been
offended when I did hesitate or guess wrong. I hadn't learned the
trick of it. I'd been in Strigan's own apartment, seen her belongings,
and still wasn't sure what forms to use with her now.
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
add a comment |
It's neither. Some characters (e.g. Seivarden) are definitely male, and probably there are as many female as male Radchaai (at least I din't find any hint about a gender imbalance in the book.)
We are essentially reading a (fictional) English translation of a Radchaai book. The Radchaai language does not mark gender in any way, but in English, we do not have gender-neutral pronouns, so the (fictional) translator has to make a choice. Usually, people chose the male pronoun in this case, but Ann Leckie chose the female pronoun.
Normal Radchaai seem to be able to recognize one's gender, but Breq has trouble doing so, maybe because a ship doesn't have sexual organs, and the ship had bot male and female ancillaries.
I think this quote from the book shows this well:
Since we weren't speaking Radchaai I had to take gender into
account--Strigan's language required it. The society she lived in
professed at the same time to believe gender was insignificant. Males
and females dressed, spoke, acted indistinguishably. And yet no one I'd
met had ever hesitated or guessed wrong- And they had invariably been
offended when I did hesitate or guess wrong. I hadn't learned the
trick of it. I'd been in Strigan's own apartment, seen her belongings,
and still wasn't sure what forms to use with her now.
It's neither. Some characters (e.g. Seivarden) are definitely male, and probably there are as many female as male Radchaai (at least I din't find any hint about a gender imbalance in the book.)
We are essentially reading a (fictional) English translation of a Radchaai book. The Radchaai language does not mark gender in any way, but in English, we do not have gender-neutral pronouns, so the (fictional) translator has to make a choice. Usually, people chose the male pronoun in this case, but Ann Leckie chose the female pronoun.
Normal Radchaai seem to be able to recognize one's gender, but Breq has trouble doing so, maybe because a ship doesn't have sexual organs, and the ship had bot male and female ancillaries.
I think this quote from the book shows this well:
Since we weren't speaking Radchaai I had to take gender into
account--Strigan's language required it. The society she lived in
professed at the same time to believe gender was insignificant. Males
and females dressed, spoke, acted indistinguishably. And yet no one I'd
met had ever hesitated or guessed wrong- And they had invariably been
offended when I did hesitate or guess wrong. I hadn't learned the
trick of it. I'd been in Strigan's own apartment, seen her belongings,
and still wasn't sure what forms to use with her now.
answered Jan 4 '14 at 18:20
oefeoefe
33429
33429
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
add a comment |
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
5
5
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
Can human Radchaai can recognize each other's gender before they get undressed? They seem to genuinely not care: Breq never mentions gender when she describes the officers' interpersonal relationships or the clientage relationship. When Strigan asks how Radchaai reproduce, Breq's answer almost suggests that that's the first time Radchaai would stop to consider their gender combination (she says something to the effect that they would remove their contraceptive implant or visit the clinic; what does it matter?).
– Pixel
Jun 13 '14 at 18:13
2
2
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
I don't think that the Justice of Toren's lack of gender has anything to do with why she has trouble recognizing gender in others. I don't have fur, but I have no trouble recognizing animal fur types and colors. I think the real reason is that it is so rarely important to Justice of Toren that she had never needed to learn to do it without sensor data.
– Paul
Aug 25 '16 at 0:27
add a comment |
In contrast to the answer by Jim Davis, I posit that the lack of explicit gender-related questions is intentional and exactly the point. The author has kept it so deliberately vague that it highlights only our own questions and assumptions about the role of gender (both in the stories we read and society in general).
In terms of the fictional universe, I think most Radchaai have little preference in gender. Breq's difficulty in guessing correctly is a little odd, but not entirely implausible when you consider the following:
- She's essentially a different species. When you look at monkeys in the zoo, can you immediately tell their genders without looking at their genitals?
- Radchaai in uniform all dress the same and may have similar haircuts, lack of facial hair, etc... which would make it more difficult for a non-human to tell, even one who is very capable in other areas (such as combat and technical functions).
- Most of the time, Justice of Toren relies more on data from its sensors and implant-uploads about emotional states, rather than actual facial recognition.
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
add a comment |
In contrast to the answer by Jim Davis, I posit that the lack of explicit gender-related questions is intentional and exactly the point. The author has kept it so deliberately vague that it highlights only our own questions and assumptions about the role of gender (both in the stories we read and society in general).
In terms of the fictional universe, I think most Radchaai have little preference in gender. Breq's difficulty in guessing correctly is a little odd, but not entirely implausible when you consider the following:
- She's essentially a different species. When you look at monkeys in the zoo, can you immediately tell their genders without looking at their genitals?
- Radchaai in uniform all dress the same and may have similar haircuts, lack of facial hair, etc... which would make it more difficult for a non-human to tell, even one who is very capable in other areas (such as combat and technical functions).
- Most of the time, Justice of Toren relies more on data from its sensors and implant-uploads about emotional states, rather than actual facial recognition.
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
add a comment |
In contrast to the answer by Jim Davis, I posit that the lack of explicit gender-related questions is intentional and exactly the point. The author has kept it so deliberately vague that it highlights only our own questions and assumptions about the role of gender (both in the stories we read and society in general).
In terms of the fictional universe, I think most Radchaai have little preference in gender. Breq's difficulty in guessing correctly is a little odd, but not entirely implausible when you consider the following:
- She's essentially a different species. When you look at monkeys in the zoo, can you immediately tell their genders without looking at their genitals?
- Radchaai in uniform all dress the same and may have similar haircuts, lack of facial hair, etc... which would make it more difficult for a non-human to tell, even one who is very capable in other areas (such as combat and technical functions).
- Most of the time, Justice of Toren relies more on data from its sensors and implant-uploads about emotional states, rather than actual facial recognition.
In contrast to the answer by Jim Davis, I posit that the lack of explicit gender-related questions is intentional and exactly the point. The author has kept it so deliberately vague that it highlights only our own questions and assumptions about the role of gender (both in the stories we read and society in general).
In terms of the fictional universe, I think most Radchaai have little preference in gender. Breq's difficulty in guessing correctly is a little odd, but not entirely implausible when you consider the following:
- She's essentially a different species. When you look at monkeys in the zoo, can you immediately tell their genders without looking at their genitals?
- Radchaai in uniform all dress the same and may have similar haircuts, lack of facial hair, etc... which would make it more difficult for a non-human to tell, even one who is very capable in other areas (such as combat and technical functions).
- Most of the time, Justice of Toren relies more on data from its sensors and implant-uploads about emotional states, rather than actual facial recognition.
edited May 6 '16 at 21:46
recognizer
7,00223156
7,00223156
answered Apr 14 '15 at 18:49
OliverOliver
311
311
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
add a comment |
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
1
1
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
Welcome to SFF.SE. Criticism of other posters -- especially criticism that involves an opinion -- should be reserved for comments (you will need to earn 50 reputation to comment everywhere) rather than answers. I encourage you to take a look at the help center to familiarize yourself with the site.
– Null♦
Apr 14 '15 at 18:55
add a comment |
Breq refers to at least two characters (Seivarden in chapter 1 of Ancillary Justice and Uran, the younger brother whom Queter tried to protect from Raughd's coercion by blowing Raughd up, in Ancillary Mercy) as he in other languages and she in Radchaai and in the narration, but she messes up at first with Uran and is forced to guess with a bartender. Brother and sister are used along the same lines for Uran.
add a comment |
Breq refers to at least two characters (Seivarden in chapter 1 of Ancillary Justice and Uran, the younger brother whom Queter tried to protect from Raughd's coercion by blowing Raughd up, in Ancillary Mercy) as he in other languages and she in Radchaai and in the narration, but she messes up at first with Uran and is forced to guess with a bartender. Brother and sister are used along the same lines for Uran.
add a comment |
Breq refers to at least two characters (Seivarden in chapter 1 of Ancillary Justice and Uran, the younger brother whom Queter tried to protect from Raughd's coercion by blowing Raughd up, in Ancillary Mercy) as he in other languages and she in Radchaai and in the narration, but she messes up at first with Uran and is forced to guess with a bartender. Brother and sister are used along the same lines for Uran.
Breq refers to at least two characters (Seivarden in chapter 1 of Ancillary Justice and Uran, the younger brother whom Queter tried to protect from Raughd's coercion by blowing Raughd up, in Ancillary Mercy) as he in other languages and she in Radchaai and in the narration, but she messes up at first with Uran and is forced to guess with a bartender. Brother and sister are used along the same lines for Uran.
edited Aug 24 '16 at 16:48
David Moles
278212
278212
answered Jul 28 '16 at 17:41
MsternMstern
1
1
add a comment |
add a comment |
This makes it very hard to picture these characters and its confusing, so far Im very unpleased with this book and regret spending on it.
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This makes it very hard to picture these characters and its confusing, so far Im very unpleased with this book and regret spending on it.
New contributor
add a comment |
This makes it very hard to picture these characters and its confusing, so far Im very unpleased with this book and regret spending on it.
New contributor
This makes it very hard to picture these characters and its confusing, so far Im very unpleased with this book and regret spending on it.
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New contributor
answered 6 mins ago
BenBen
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1
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I was discussing this just last night with my SF book club.
Our consensus is that
the Radchaai are human (though some are augmented)
As such they have two sexes
- Nothing in the book says anything about sexual preferences. For instance we do not know if any, most, or all of them are pan-sexual, or have the same distribution of homo- and hetero- sexuality as "we" do.
- There is nothing in the book to say anything about other sexes/genders, transsexuals, etc (vs, say LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, or Iain M Banks "Culture" novels, or even Heinlein's short story All You Zombies
- the Radchaai language does not distinguish between genders, but this does not prove the Radchaai are indifferent to sex in choosing partners. Note that English (which does require male or female pronouns) does not lexically mark "race" or for that matter hair colour or bra size, yet people will often choose sexual partners based on such features. We have words in English for all these things, but the language per se does not mark them or require them.
- Breq reports having difficulty deciding the sex of people from other cultures based only on external observables.
Our sentiments were that while Leckie told us about the absence of gender in the language, she told us nothing about the gender arrangements in Radchaai world. In particular, we do not know if there is gender discrimination. The feminists among us were left unsatisfied. (Not because we only want to read utopian feminism, but because interesting questions were not even asked, much less answered.) We know a great deal more about their gloves than their loves
We also found Breq's inability implausible, unless we are to think she's damaged, which we also doubted. It's hard to imagine a being capable of running a starship and able to fight very well being unable to do this.
There are many things to admire in this novel, but we did not admire it as an examination of gender.
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
|
show 1 more comment
I was discussing this just last night with my SF book club.
Our consensus is that
the Radchaai are human (though some are augmented)
As such they have two sexes
- Nothing in the book says anything about sexual preferences. For instance we do not know if any, most, or all of them are pan-sexual, or have the same distribution of homo- and hetero- sexuality as "we" do.
- There is nothing in the book to say anything about other sexes/genders, transsexuals, etc (vs, say LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, or Iain M Banks "Culture" novels, or even Heinlein's short story All You Zombies
- the Radchaai language does not distinguish between genders, but this does not prove the Radchaai are indifferent to sex in choosing partners. Note that English (which does require male or female pronouns) does not lexically mark "race" or for that matter hair colour or bra size, yet people will often choose sexual partners based on such features. We have words in English for all these things, but the language per se does not mark them or require them.
- Breq reports having difficulty deciding the sex of people from other cultures based only on external observables.
Our sentiments were that while Leckie told us about the absence of gender in the language, she told us nothing about the gender arrangements in Radchaai world. In particular, we do not know if there is gender discrimination. The feminists among us were left unsatisfied. (Not because we only want to read utopian feminism, but because interesting questions were not even asked, much less answered.) We know a great deal more about their gloves than their loves
We also found Breq's inability implausible, unless we are to think she's damaged, which we also doubted. It's hard to imagine a being capable of running a starship and able to fight very well being unable to do this.
There are many things to admire in this novel, but we did not admire it as an examination of gender.
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
|
show 1 more comment
I was discussing this just last night with my SF book club.
Our consensus is that
the Radchaai are human (though some are augmented)
As such they have two sexes
- Nothing in the book says anything about sexual preferences. For instance we do not know if any, most, or all of them are pan-sexual, or have the same distribution of homo- and hetero- sexuality as "we" do.
- There is nothing in the book to say anything about other sexes/genders, transsexuals, etc (vs, say LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, or Iain M Banks "Culture" novels, or even Heinlein's short story All You Zombies
- the Radchaai language does not distinguish between genders, but this does not prove the Radchaai are indifferent to sex in choosing partners. Note that English (which does require male or female pronouns) does not lexically mark "race" or for that matter hair colour or bra size, yet people will often choose sexual partners based on such features. We have words in English for all these things, but the language per se does not mark them or require them.
- Breq reports having difficulty deciding the sex of people from other cultures based only on external observables.
Our sentiments were that while Leckie told us about the absence of gender in the language, she told us nothing about the gender arrangements in Radchaai world. In particular, we do not know if there is gender discrimination. The feminists among us were left unsatisfied. (Not because we only want to read utopian feminism, but because interesting questions were not even asked, much less answered.) We know a great deal more about their gloves than their loves
We also found Breq's inability implausible, unless we are to think she's damaged, which we also doubted. It's hard to imagine a being capable of running a starship and able to fight very well being unable to do this.
There are many things to admire in this novel, but we did not admire it as an examination of gender.
I was discussing this just last night with my SF book club.
Our consensus is that
the Radchaai are human (though some are augmented)
As such they have two sexes
- Nothing in the book says anything about sexual preferences. For instance we do not know if any, most, or all of them are pan-sexual, or have the same distribution of homo- and hetero- sexuality as "we" do.
- There is nothing in the book to say anything about other sexes/genders, transsexuals, etc (vs, say LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness, or Iain M Banks "Culture" novels, or even Heinlein's short story All You Zombies
- the Radchaai language does not distinguish between genders, but this does not prove the Radchaai are indifferent to sex in choosing partners. Note that English (which does require male or female pronouns) does not lexically mark "race" or for that matter hair colour or bra size, yet people will often choose sexual partners based on such features. We have words in English for all these things, but the language per se does not mark them or require them.
- Breq reports having difficulty deciding the sex of people from other cultures based only on external observables.
Our sentiments were that while Leckie told us about the absence of gender in the language, she told us nothing about the gender arrangements in Radchaai world. In particular, we do not know if there is gender discrimination. The feminists among us were left unsatisfied. (Not because we only want to read utopian feminism, but because interesting questions were not even asked, much less answered.) We know a great deal more about their gloves than their loves
We also found Breq's inability implausible, unless we are to think she's damaged, which we also doubted. It's hard to imagine a being capable of running a starship and able to fight very well being unable to do this.
There are many things to admire in this novel, but we did not admire it as an examination of gender.
edited Sep 22 '16 at 12:27
Mithoron
8221918
8221918
answered Jan 16 '15 at 21:28
Jim DavisJim Davis
1072
1072
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
|
show 1 more comment
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
1
1
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
In Ancillary Sword, you will find out what the Radchai think about gender discrimination.
– oefe
Apr 17 '15 at 13:49
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I am sad to notice people are downvoting my post without attaching any comments as to why. I can understand you might not agree with my (our) interpretations, but were they so poorly expressed as to deserve actual downvoting and consequent loss of reputation?
– Jim Davis
May 18 '16 at 20:29
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I'm not among the downvoters, but speaking for "the feminists among us" seems a bit presumptuous, and the editorializing is off-topic.
– David Moles
Aug 24 '16 at 16:25
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I believe "the feminists among us" was specifically reporting the opinions of the book club, not all feminists everywhere.
– starpilotsix
Sep 22 '16 at 12:19
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
I'm afraid that you didn't get many things in that book. Genders among Radchai are not only equal, they aren't even distinguished at all! They have no traditions or customs for one sex or another.
– Mithoron
Sep 22 '16 at 12:20
|
show 1 more comment
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I got the book out of the library and don't have it anymore, so I can't back this up well enough to turn it into an answer. But my impression was: 1) the gender ratio in the book is probably not all that skewed; and 2) it's not so much that Breq can't tell as that she doesn't particularly care to try -- gender is not an attribute that she uses to mentally classify people, so she thinks of everyone using the same pronoun.
– Micah
Jan 4 '14 at 7:52